"Michael Vick Ran a 4.2 40!!!!!"

Truth is, we lose many of the best track athletes before they even hit the track in college. Many of those who do compete in college (Tyrone Wheatley here in Michigan is a good example) only do so on loan from their football coaches and only when it doesn't conflict with spring practice. Wheatley was dominant in high school, winning four individual state championships in the same meet. But he only competed occasionally for Michigan and was so bulked up for football that he may have actually gotten slower. His current 6', 235 pound build is hardly ideal for sprinting.

Darrell Green wouldve smoked Bob Hayes

I couldn't find specific info online about the NFL's Fastest Man contest except that it was last held in 1997 and Darrell Green won it 4 times. Rumors are that it may start up again. When I watched it on TV back in the 80s it was a single-elimination tournament of one-on-one 50y dashes on grass with starting blocks.

I've got an Allen Johnson poster on my wall that lists his AR at 12.92. I tell kids that's three back-to-back 40s, averaging 4.31, with ten waist-high barriers in the way.

While I'm no expert, the list of football tests I've seen includes vertical jump, standing long jump, 225 bench press for reps, 40y dash, 20y dash, 10y dash, 20y shuttle, 60y shuttle, and a three-cone drill. So 40y times are only one of many measurements. Around here everyone knows it was invented by Paul Brown because he decided it was about the longest you'd typically run in a game.

Not only did he win it four times but he didnt do it most years during his career.

I agree with the guy that said we lose very good sprinters BEFORE they ever get to college. I'd be willing to bet that we even lose most of them BEFORE they ever run a track race.

Sure Mo' Greene could beat NFLers in a race now, but had they not been able to catch a pass (a la Patten, Capel and probably Mo' himself) and dedicated themselves to sprinting the results would probably change.

Fact is, no kids dream about being a sprint champion and many (even crappy players) do about football.

i dreamed about being a sprint champion when i was a kid. then i realized i'm white.

It's a good thing that Jeremy Wariner isn't a moron like you.

I've never understood the use of 40 times for most position players in the NFL. Of the 22 guys on the field at one time, how many actually run more than 10-15 yards on one play? I find it funny that even QB's rise and drop on the draft charts based on their 40 time. I mean, even when a guy does scramble, how many times does he get up to his "sprint" speed? And how many run in a straight line? Most of them are looking to get on the ground or get out of bounds as fast as they can.

Also, it's all well and good to run the 40 in x.xx time wearing shorts and t-shirts. It's a totally different thing loaded down with equipment.

northern boy wrote:

Wheatley was dominant in high school, winning four individual state championships in the same meet. But he only competed occasionally for Michigan and was so bulked up for football that he may have actually gotten slower. His current 6', 235 pound build is hardly ideal for sprinting.

Actually, Wheatley turned into a pretty decent hurdler for as much effort as he put into it. I recall him making USATF finals immediately following his last year at UM.

The All Time NFL 100 Meters

"A"

lane

1.Ron Brown Rams/ASU 10.06

2.Alvis Whitted Raiders/NCSt 10.07

3.Darrel Green Redskins/Tex A&I 10.08

4.Bullet Bob Hayes Cowboys/Fla A&M 10.06

5.Sam Graddy Broncos/Tenn 10.09

6.Jimmy Hines Dolphins/Tex So. 9.95

7.Willie Gault Bears/Tenn 10.11

8.Curtis Dickey Colts/Tex A&M 10.11 (fastest running back ever,actually world ranked)

"B"

lane

1.James Jett Raiders/WV

2.Michael Bates Seahawks/Arizona

3.Michael Bennet Vikings/Wis

4.James Trapp Raiders/Clemson

5.Terrence Newman Cowboys/Kans St

6.Willie McGee Chargers/Alcorn St (WR 9.1)

7.Phil Epps Packers/TCU

8.Johnny Jones Jets/Texas

"C"

lane

1.Herschel Walker Cowboys/Ga.

2.Cliff Branch Raiders/Colorado

3.Mel Gray Cards/Mo.

4.Isacc Curtis Bengals/SDS

5.Frank Budd Eagles/Villanova

6.Henry Carr Giants/ASU

7.Ray Norton Niners/SJS

8.Gerald Tinker Falcons/Kent St

"D"

lane

1.Homer Jones Giants/Tex So

2.Cecil Turner Bears/CPSLO

3.Bo Jackson Raiders/Auburn

4.Deion Sanders Falcons/Fla St

5.Larry Burton Saints/Purdue

6.JD Hill Bills/ASU

7.OJ Simpson Bills/USC

8.Anthony Miller Chargers/Tenn

"E"

lane

1.Richmond Flowers Giants/Tenn

2.Renaldo Nehemiah Niners/Mary

3.Mark Duper Dolphins/NELa

4.Ken Burrough Oilers/Tex So

5.Andrew Hopkins Oilers/SFAustin

6.Joe Delaney Chiefs/NELa

7.John Roderick Dolphins/SMU

8.Charles Frazier Oilers/Tex So

"F"

lane

1.Ollie Matson Rams/SF

2.Wesley Walker Jets/Cal

3.Buddy Young Rams/Ill

4.Bob Boyd Rams/Loyola

5.Cyril Pinder Eagles/Ill

6.Curtis Conway Bears/USC

7.Harold Jackson Eagles/Jackson St

8.Clarence Childs Giants/Fla A&M

"G"

lane

1.Alexander Wright Cowboys/Auburn

2.Rocket Ismail Raiders/ND

3.James Owens Niners/UCLA

4.Herkie Walls Oilers/Texas

5.Tony Jones Oilers/Texas

6.Darrin Nelson Vikings/Stanford

7.Vance Johnson Broncos/Arizona

8.Tim Dwight Falcons/Iowa

Another Face in the Crowd wrote:

In one espn broadcast they said mo green ran 3.94 in the first 40 yards of his wr indoor 60.

Carl, Mo, and Ben have all been timed in the range of 3.7-3.95 for 40 yards. That's how much faster the top guys in track are. And it's not just the top guys. If you want to get anywhere in the sprints (keep in mind what Wariner ran for 200), you need hand-timed 3.6-3.7 (or faster) for 30m out of blocks, and this comes to 4.2-4.3 40y speed. Once again, this isn't just the top guys--everybody decent has to be able to to this, which should put 4.2 football speed into some perspective.

From what I've heard, they have been using FAT in the combines, but it's actually 41 yards with a 1 yard running start: They start the timer after 1y and stop it at 41y. Draw your own conclusions.

Umm, has nobody mentioned that your foot rests on a trigger that starts the clock when your foot leaves the pad?

Bob Hayes ran 10.03 in his heats and 10.06 in the olympic final on a cinder track (the final was in lane 1, if you know anything about cinder tracks you don't want lane 1). He also ran what is considered the fastest 400m relay leg of all time (reportedly 8.7s), and he did it on a cinder track. The current and recent world record holders could probably achieve these times on cinders. But there isn't another football player in this category, yet...

The fastest FAT 40y ever was Montgomery's 4.35 en route to his WR 9.78. Football 40's are .4 seconds slower than FAT: .2 seconds for the timer's reaction to the start, and .2 for the fact that the runner is not reacting to a gun.

Lynx would be delighted to take some timing gear to any Professional Football Combine and give them true times. We have offered on many occasions and no team has taken us up on it. It took many years for Texas High School Track to get used to FAT timing, but they eventually realised they would rather have accurate times than bogus fast ones...and now Texas schools can't get enough FAT timing equipment.

All the best,

Giles.

I'm pretty sure Malmo posted that. It was quite interesting. Maybe he will share it again.

If it makes any of you guys feel any better about losing sprinters to football, I just came back from a HS football game where one of our team's parents, a 10yr NFL veteran, asked me what we could do to make sure that he son would come out for track in the spring and put 100% effort into it. This guy was talking about how much more respect he had for the football guys who would run track to compete, not just to stay in shape when he was in college. It was actually really encouraging to hear this guy, who made his millions in football, talking about track as a sport, not as off season football.

Hedgehog wrote:

I'm pretty sure Malmo posted that. It was quite interesting. Maybe he will share it again

These are the best incremental splits ever recorded for 100m, which add up to 9.46 for 100m (assuming perfect reaction time of zero) Add .10 (allowable reaction time), and you get 9.56 for the "perfect race."

0-10m: 1.69s (Minus RT),

Raymond Stewart (9.96s Tokyo WCH 1991, w+1.2m/s),

Frankie Fredericks (9.86s Lausanne GP 1996, w-0.4m/s),

Maurice Greene (9.79WR Athens GP 1999, w+0.1m/s & 9.82s Edmonton WCH 2001, w-0.2m/s) &

Tim Montgomery (9.85s Edmonton 1.69+WCH 2001, w-0.2m/s)

(Note: 1.69s, also by Ben Johnson Seoul OG 1988 DQ*, 9.79s w+1.1m/s)

10-20m: 1.00s, (2.69)

Bruny Surin (9.84s Sevilla WCH 1999, w+0.2m/s) &

Maurice Greene (9.82s Edmonton WCH 2001, w-0.2m/s)

(Note: 1.00s, also by Ben Johnson Roma WCH sf. 1987 DQ*)

20-30m: 0.89s, (3.58)

Maurice Greene (9.87s Stockholm GP 1999, w+1.3m/s)

30-40m: 0.86s, (4.44)

Maurice Greene (9.97s Crystal Palace BGP 1999) &

Tim Montogmery (9.84s Olso GL 2001, w+2.0m/s)

(Note: 0.86s, also by Ben Johnson Seoul OG 1988 DQ*, 9.79s w+1.1m/s)

40-50m: 0.84s, (5.28)

Carl Lewis (9.86WR Tokyo WCH 1991, w+1.2m/s),

Frankie Fredericks (9.86s Lausanne GP 1996, w-0.4m/s),

Maurice Greene (9.93s Lausanne GP 1999) &

Tim Montgomery (9.78WR Paris GP Final 2002, w+2.0m/s),

(Note: 0.84s, aslo by Ben Johnson Seoul OG 1988 DQ*, 9.79s)

50-60m: 0.82s, (6.10)

Maurice Greene (9.85s Roma GP 1999, w+0.8m/s, 9.86s Berlin GL 2000, w-0.2m/s & 9.87s Sydney OG 2000, w-0.3m/s)

60-70m: 0.83s, (6.93)

Donovan Bailey (9.93s Lausanne GP 1996) &

Maurice Greene (9.86s Berlin GL 2000, w-0.2m/s 9.87s Sydney OG 2000, w-0.3m/s & 9.82s Edmonton WCH 2001, w-0.2m/s)

70-80m: 0.83s, (7.76)

Carl Lewis (9.86WR Tokyo WCH 1991, w+1.2m/s) &

Maurice Greene (9.86s Berlin GL 2000, w-0.2m/s & 9.87s Sydney OG 2000, w-0.3m/s)

80-90m: 0.85s, (8.61)

Carl Lewis (10.03s Roma WCH sf. 1987,w-1.4m/s, 9.93WR Roma WCH 1987, w+1.0m/s, 9.97s Seoul OG sf. 1988,w+0.6m/s, & 10.02s Stuttgart WCH 1993, w+0.3m/s) &

Maurice Greene (9.79WR Athens GP 1999, w+0.1m/s, 9.80s Sevilla WCH 1999, w+0.2m/s & Sydney OG 2000,w-0.3m/s)

90-100m: 0.85s, (9.46)

Carl Lewis (9.99s Los Angeles OG 1984,w+0.2m/s & 10.02s Stuttgart WCH 1993, w+0.3m/s) &

Maurice Greene (9.79WR Athens GP 1999, w+0.1m/s)

"Biomechanics of Sport and Exercise" by Peter McGinnis, has splits for Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis during the 1988 Olympic 100m final.

Ben Johnson

position.....elapsed time......interval time

10m..........1.83...............1.83

20m..........2.87...............1.04

30m..........3.80...............0.93

40m..........4.66...............0.86

50m..........5.50...............0.84

60m..........6.33...............0.83

70m..........7.17...............0.84

80m..........8.02...............0.85

90m..........8.89...............0.87

100m.........9.79...............0.90

Carl Lewis

position.....elapsed time......interval time

10m..........1.89...............1.89

20m..........2.96...............1.07

30m..........3.90...............0.94

40m..........4.79...............0.89

50m..........5.65...............0.86

60m..........6.48...............0.83

70m..........7.33...............0.85

80m..........8.18...............0.85

90m..........9.04...............0.86

100m.........9.92...............0.88

Rome '87 wind +1.0

Ben Johnson 1.84 2.86 3.80 4.67 5.53 6.38 7.23 8.10 8.96 9.83

1.71 1.02 0.94 0.87 0.86 0.85 0.85 0.87 0.86 0.87

Reaction Time: 0.129

Carl Lewis 1.94 2.96 3.91 4.78 5.64 6.50 7.36 8.22 9.07 9.93

1.75 1.02 0.95 0.87 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.85 0.86

Reaction Time: 0.193

Seoul '88 wind +1.1

Ben Johnson 1.83 2.87 3.80 4.66 5.50 6.33 7.17 8.02 8.89 9.79

1.70 1.04 0.93 0.86 0.84 0.83 0.84 0.85 0.87 0.90

Reaction Time: 0.132

Carl Lewis 1.89 2.96 3.90 4.79 5.65 6.48 7.33 8.18 9.04 9.92

1.75 1.07 0.94 0.89 0.86 0.83 0.85 0.85 0.86 0.88

Reaction Time: 0.136

Linf. Christie 1.92 2.97 3.92 4.81 5.66 6.50 7.36 8.22 9.09 9.97

1.05 0.95 0.89 0.85 0.84 0.86 0.86 0.87 0.88

Reaction Time: ?

Tokyo '91 wind +1.2

Carl Lewis 1.88 2.96 3.88 4.77 5.61 6.46 7.30 8.13 9.00 9.86

1.74 1.08 0.92 0.89 0.84 0.85 0.84 0.83 0.87 0.86

Reaction Time: 0.140

Leroy Burrell 1.83 2.89 3.79 4.68 5.55 6.41 7.26 8.12 9.01 9.88

1.71 1.06 0.90 0.89 0.87 0.86 0.87 0.84 0.89 0.87

Reaction Time: 0.120

Dennis Mitchell 1.80 2.87 3.80 4.68 5.55 6.42 7.28 8.14 9.01 9.91

1.71 1.07 0.93 0.88 0.87 0.87 0.86 0.86 0.87 0.90

Reaction Time: 0.090

Raymond Stewart 5.54 9.96

Reaction Time: 0.114

Atlanta '96 (hand-time?)

------------------------

Donovan Bailey 1.9 3.1 4.1 4.9 5.6 6.5 7.2 8.1 9.0 9.84

Reaction time: 0.174

Athens '97

----------

MG 1.71 1.04 0.92 0.88 0.87 0.85 0.85 0.86 0.87 0.88

0.13 1.71 2.75 3.67 4.55 5.42 6.27 7.12 7.98 8.85 9.73

DB 1.78 1.03 0.91 0.87 0.85 0.85 0.85 0.86 0.87 0.90

0.14 1.78 2.81 3.72 4.59 5.44 6.29 7.14 8.00 8.87 9.77

TM 1.73 1.03 0.93 0.88 0.86 0.86 0.86 0.87 0.88 0.90

0.13 1.73 2.76 3.69 4.57 5.43 6.29 7.15 8.02 8.90 9.80

FF 1.73 1.04 0.93 0.89 0.87 0.86 0.86 0.87 0.88 0.89

0.12 1.73 2.77 3.70 4.59 5.46 6.32 7.18 8.05 8.93 9.82

AB 1.72 1.05 0.93 0.89 0.87 0.87 0.87 0.88 0.90 0.92

0.12 1.72 2.77 3.70 4.59 5.46 6.33 7.20 8.08 8.98 9.90

Best 10m Segments

0-10m 1.71 M. Greene '97, B. Johnson '87*, L. Burrell '91

D. Mitchell '91 (1.70 B. Johnson '88*)

10-20m 1.02 C. Lewis '87, B. Johnson '87*

20-30m 0.90 L. Burrell '91 (D. Bailey 0.91 '97)

30-40m 0.87 C. Lewis '87, D. Bailey '97, B. Johnson '87*,

(B. Johnson 0.86 '88)

40-50m 0.84 C. Lewis '91, (B. Johnson '88)

50-60m 0.83 C. Lewis '88 (B. Johnson '88)

60-70m 0.84 C. Lewis '91 (B. Johnson '88)

70-80m 0.83 C. Lewis '91

80-90m 0.85 C. Lewis '87

90-100m0.86 C. Lewis '87, '91

- Carl Lewis' best splits & reaction time add up to 9.74, while his PB was 9.86. A 0.12 difference. Notice Lewis has the fastest times in every split except 0-10m and 20-30m.

- Ben Johnson's best splits & reaction time add up to 9.73, while his PB was 9.79. A 0.06 difference, and considering that he let up in '88, he probably would have run 0.04s faster in the last 20m and matched his '87 splits. That adds up to a time of 9.75, only 0.02 off of his best splits added up. This leads me to believe that Ben simply learned to open his energy envelope larger than Lewis did. It's interesting to note that Ben really wasn't that much better than anyone in the actual acceleration, he just had the ability to accelerate fast without feeling the effects on his nervous system.

(1) They have to justify their expensive watches, so they hand time to the 1/100. That 4.2 is likely 4.2x, possibly as high as 4.29, which would under T&F rules be 4.3.

(2) Now add .24 accepted conversion from hand to electronic, now 4.54.

(3) Now add reaction time out of the blocks (since the football guys start the watch when the athlete moves). Mo Greene was .139 (I believe, see previous post) in his 9.80, so we'll go with that. Now we're at 4.68e.

Mike Vick is a great athlete, and quick as hell, but he's no world class sprinter. If they had to slalom the 100, it might be a different story.