Why do people think Jim Ryun was so great?

What does every Kenyan have to do with Jim Ryun's high school performances?

Seyta wrote:

but honestly he's a bit overhyped.

Your post became inane right there, little feller. Honestly.

-10

coach d wrote:

That's a pretty strong statement when you consider the others out there. Ryun's GOAT status really comes from what he did in 1965-1967, starting with his defeat of Snell and really ending with mono (he was never the same again, something many people here forget).

Snell wasn't fit at that moment.

[quote]llort_vbo wrote:

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago.

At the age of 19. And both were world records.

Ryun is without a doubt the greatest non-sprinter ever from America

Cliff Klaven wrote:

[quote]llort_vbo wrote:

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago.

At the age of 19. And both were world records.

Ryun is without a doubt the greatest non-sprinter ever from America

And consider this: 2 of our best milers just ran prs to match Ryun's 3:51. Centrowitz is 23 and Lomong is 28. Ryun ran that time at age 19 in a race he led from the start while Centro and Lomong had pacers and faster runners to follow.

The reason people are so fascinated by Ryun is the same reason people on this board are fascinated by Webb. They both just has off the charts talent that was never fully realized because of any number of circumstances.

Barakus Obama wrote:

coach d wrote:

That's a pretty strong statement when you consider the others out there. Ryun's GOAT status really comes from what he did in 1965-1967, starting with his defeat of Snell and really ending with mono (he was never the same again, something many people here forget).

Snell wasn't fit at that moment.

Snell ran 3:55 plus in that race he lost to the 18 year old Jim Ryun. Snell's WR at the time was 3:54.1 (Jazy lowered it to 3:53.6 a few days later) and he had just defeated Grelle and Ryun a couple of week earlier.

Snell was as fit as he had ever been

eeeooor wrote:

And consider this: 2 of our best milers just ran prs to match Ryun's 3:51. Centrowitz is 23 . . .

Spun another way, a WC medalist finally matched Ryun's time. There is no doubt that the teenaged Ryun would be a world class middle distance runner even against modern professional competition.

CorpulentCruiser wrote:

ijbsjsjkdjbsnhdj wrote:

Men's Amateur Depth 1960's > Modern Women's Depth All Levels

Male and female interest and participation rates in sports is the answer.

^This.

You can't simply compare Ryun's times to today's standards. New eras tend to foster better performances because of what past eras didn't have. Look at where Ryun stacked up in the scope of the world's best runners of his day, and compare that to where Cain, Webb, or anyone else ranked among the world's best of their time. That is why he was so great.

So Betty Robinson was a better high school sprinter than Allyson Felix?

eeeooor wrote:

And consider this: 2 of our best milers just ran prs to match Ryun's 3:51. Centrowitz is 23 and Lomong is 28. Ryun ran that time at age 19 in a race he led from the start while Centro and Lomong had pacers and faster runners to follow.

The reason people are so fascinated by Ryun is the same reason people on this board are fascinated by Webb. They both just has off the charts talent that was never fully realized because of any number of circumstances.

And just to follow up, While Webb did run faster than Ryun at age 18, it wasn't until he was 21 that he beat Ryun's time at age 19.

Ryun ran 3:51 and 3:33 as a sophomore at Kansas. No one in the NCAA today is running even close to those times. Lalang's bests are 3:36 and 3:55.

If Ryun were somehow transported from 1966 to the present he would destroy current NCAA runners.

XXXXXXxxxx wrote:

Don't forget Ryun didn't start running seriously until his sophomore year in high school.

No age group club. 9th grade was Junior High back and he dabbled around in a bunch of sports.

"World Class" categorization and making the Olympics aside. In less than 2 years of training, he ran a sub 4 mile as a junior in high school no less.

I challenge you to find ONE other human being on the planet that has done that (sub 4 at age 17 with less than 2 years of training or run sub 4:10 with less than 1 year of training at age 16).

If anything he was the greatest talent.

There are many of them in Kenya and Ethiopia.

There are many of them in Kenya and Ethiopia.[/quote]

__________________________________________________________

Druggies don't count. Until they and their coaches demand

testing on themselves, the whole world will look at them and

think: "Hmmmmm, I wonder how Lance Armstrong is doing

today?"

You are an idiot.

[quote]llort_vbo wrote:

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago. That's why he's great.

^^^^^^^ This....he ran incredible times on crappy tracks with terrible shoes. He was world class when he was in high school.

sub3over40 wrote:

[quote]llort_vbo wrote:

Oooh, another iconoclast on LR....

Ryun ran 1:44 and 3:51 on cinder tracks over 40 years ago. That's why he's great.

^^^^^^^ This....he ran incredible times on crappy tracks with terrible shoes. He was world class when he was in high school.

I forgot to mention he ran these times without pacemaker in front pretty much the whole way. Look at the video of his 3:51 - He was Secretariat.

You let me know when someone else makes the Olympic team as a junior in HS, then wins the national championship AND sets an AR as a senior. Even if he didn't go on to set 4 WR in the following 2 years he'd be one of the best Americans ever.

I think he & Lindgren set the bar so high that people who weren't alive then simply can't comprehend how good they were, not just against other HS runners but against world class runners.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Track is not popular on the local level like it was in the 19th century

I don't think it was really that popular back then. And times weren't all that impressive. I mean, the WR for the mile progressed no further than 4:15.

1955 wrote:

You let me know when someone else makes the Olympic team as a junior in HS, then wins the national championship AND sets an AR as a senior. Even if he didn't go on to set 4 WR in the following 2 years he'd be one of the best Americans ever.

I think he & Lindgren set the bar so high that people who weren't alive then simply can't comprehend how good they were, not just against other HS runners but against world class runners.

But the OP's straw man argument is that Ryun made the team and won national championships because the competition was weaker.

And my counterargument is this: While no one is suggesting that it is much more difficult to become world class today than it was in Ryun's era, his times stand on their own.

No other American ran as fast as Ryun at age 19. Period. And it goes without saying that his times were achieved in much less favorable conditions - runners today have faster tracks, races with pacers in ideal weather, faster runners to pull them to fast times, much more knowledge about training, nutrition, etc.

There were Africans running in Ryun's time. Check results from the Mexico City Olympics or ask Ron CLarke about how lucky he was to not have to compete against Africans. But yes, there were fewer Africans running then than now though there were far more than most people today recognize.

There was also a LOT MORE competition from Europe then than there is now and in the non-English world, a lot of those competitors were really professionals. Every world class athlete from the Eastern Bloc "worked" as either a military officer or as a student who received a "stipend." In ether case, the athletes' real job was to train and compete.

Even in non-Eastern Bloc countries, there frequently were support systems that allowed athletes of international caliber to train and race as they needed to without the imposition of work. Kenyans who showed running ability were given jobs in the military or police force where they had very light work loads and were free to travel to races whenever the Kenyan AAA approved a trip. Viren's work as a policeman was essentially part time. In other parts of Europe, athletics was a very popular sport and local clubs were often able to find jobs for their best guys that paid full salaries for part time work that allowed them to train and occasionally that even happened in English speaking countries. Gordon Pirie had a job with a bank where his hours were reduced so he could train. Snell was doing promotional work for a New Zealand cigarette company which didn't take up much time at all when Ryun beat him in 1965. It was a job that was specifically created to allow him to train and race.

If you look at the World Cross Country Championships today or look at results from national championships in Europe, Asia, New Zealand, Mexico, South America, it's easy to claim that "most of the world can't be bothered with competing." There are probably fewer countries today where athletics is taken seriously by far than there was in Ryun's time and many of the athletes he was beating then were mature professionals. And this is why those of us who were involved with the sport in Ryun's time think he was so great.

ancient history wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Track is not popular on the local level like it was in the 19th century

I don't think it was really that popular back then. And times weren't all that impressive. I mean, the WR for the mile progressed no further than 4:15.

I would assume he means 20th century. Some folks are not so good with history. 19th century is quite a long time ago and no, I don't think T&F was particularly popular. People were more considered with survival.