Summer of Malmo questions

I ran 'tempo' runs by 'feel' ... almost (if not completely) exclusively for 2 - 3 months at a time ... no stopwatch. And I ran some better than decent times and competitions during that same period.

Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic on this thread. I'll just reiterate my main point; telling inexperienced runners to do a tempo run or an interval by "feel" is not a good idea, as they will invariably do them too hard. Is this a tragedy on par with Katrina? No, but it's not optimal training. And again, you don't need to hit a super specific pace. You just need to be in a range of paces so you are staying within the parameters of the workout. Any good running coach, Daniels, McMillan, etc. would say the same thing.

As for Summer of Malmo, I agree with the principals, particularly the idea that you can't improve simply by doing long slow distance all summer.

SP1340,

Then please post the single sentence or paragraph that describes how fast and how far you want inexperienced runners to go during a tempo run. Remember, inexperienced runners don't have lots of race times for different distances nor do they know how to adjust the pace to the weather nor the fact that they were up to 2:00am last night....

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic on this thread. I'll just reiterate my main point; telling inexperienced runners to do a tempo run or an interval by "feel" is not a good idea, as they will invariably do them too hard. Is this a tragedy on par with Katrina? No, but it's not optimal training. And again, you don't need to hit a super specific pace. You just need to be in a range of paces so you are staying within the parameters of the workout. Any good running coach, Daniels, McMillan, etc. would say the same thing.

As for Summer of Malmo, I agree with the principals, particularly the idea that you can't improve simply by doing long slow distance all summer.

What do you mean by "inexperienced runner?" Who falls in this category?

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic on this thread. I'll just reiterate my main point; telling inexperienced runners to do a tempo run or an interval by "feel" is not a good idea, as they will invariably do them too hard. Is this a tragedy on par with Katrina? No, but it's not optimal training. And again, you don't need to hit a super specific pace. You just need to be in a range of paces so you are staying within the parameters of the workout. Any good running coach, Daniels, McMillan, etc. would say the same thing.

As for Summer of Malmo, I agree with the principals, particularly the idea that you can't improve simply by doing long slow distance all summer.

.

No perhaps a first timer can't do a tempo run by feel, because he doesn't know exactly what that feel is. After a few times of timing yourself making sure you are in roughly a tempo range should give you a good idea of what you are looking for though in terms of feel.

One thing I disagree with though is when you talked earlier about going out to do a tempo, feeling great, and then realizing you ran 6:30's. Assuming this guy is a 15:30 runner...I just can't see that happening. There is a difference between feeling good because you are running an easy pace, and feeling good because you are in the groove. The feeling of "great" from easy pace is such because the pace is easy, in the case of a tempo run it's because you calibrated yourself and are in the "zone".

Also, most runners do have some idea of what pace they are going to do a tempo run at, and I can't imagine a decent runner that can't tell the difference between 5:30 pace and 6:15 pace. From there you can adjust by feel for how you are on that day.

Of course, inexperienced runners will need some objective guidance, and need to be often reminded that easy means easy. (I'll leave alone your first concern was the 15:30 runner running tempo too slow).In this special context of SOM, the emphasis isn't so much on optimal training, but learning how to "feel" (along with a social aspect, and keeping it fun):"Emphasis on RELAXED and emphasis on COMMITMENT"..."I'm trying to get you to "feel" Kung Fu, not "think" it.""You determine what you want to do; these are just recommendations.""Find your own sweet spot""run within yourself""relax, the real training doesn't begin until September"After one summer, this runner will now be experienced.

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

Obviously I'm in the minority on this topic on this thread. I'll just reiterate my main point; telling inexperienced runners to do a tempo run or an interval by "feel" is not a good idea, as they will invariably do them too hard. Is this a tragedy on par with Katrina? No, but it's not optimal training. And again, you don't need to hit a super specific pace. You just need to be in a range of paces so you are staying within the parameters of the workout. Any good running coach, Daniels, McMillan, etc. would say the same thing.

As for Summer of Malmo, I agree with the principals, particularly the idea that you can't improve simply by doing long slow distance all summer.

I'm with Slippery Pete on this one

The problem with going by feel is the subjectivity it engenders in the mind of someone of who thinks that "tempo" should feel relaxed.

Truth is, lactate threshold training (if that's what we mean by tempo and not steady-state or aerobic threshold training) HURTS. It's not a comfortable pace. People perceive "comfortably hard" in different ways.

If you tell me to go out and run by feel, I will most likely settle into a rhythm that places me too much inside my comfort zone and LT training is designed to target a specific physiological state.

"Truth is, lactate threshold training (if that's what we mean by tempo and not steady-state or aerobic threshold training) HURTS."

Then you did it wrong and didn't build up to it at all.

should be pretty easy to understand. a tempo feels and is pretty hard but not race pace and it will usually be 15-20 seconds per mile off of race pace for a bit longer distance (say, 4M that much off 10k pace). That pace will need to vary according to how good you feel on that day so that you don't either break yourself down or fail to get in a good workout. With inexperienced runners, just give them a pace target and see if they can maintain and improve the pace during the run. If they can do that and aren't dead legged the next couple of days, it should be fine. And there is probably a difference between how hard these tempos would be with three months to go before the season, as for most people now, and during the season. Just start them faster than normal easy pace and drop them down some most weeks and you should be fine.

mgm wrote:

If you tell me to go out and run by feel, I will most likely settle into a rhythm that places me too much inside my comfort zone and LT training is designed to target a specific physiological state.

This is very revealing.

The Summer of Malmo is a SUMMER training program for student athletes. It is about long term development and preparation for an upcoming season. There's no need to do precisely targeted LT training at this point. Aerobic development and running economy are the only things that matter.

You can worry about hitting precise LT speeds during the season. Of course, it's pretty darn hard to know exactly what a high school runner's 4mmol pace is anyway.

As everyone has said, tempo is about the feel. I would add that keeping track of the pace may be a good indicator of how much recovery you need and if you are progressing well. Tempo pace will vary slightly from day to day, but if there are big differences you may need a bit more recovery.

I guess it's just two different ways of looking at training. Some people (particularly the people on this board, it seems) look at training as more of an art-form. I think of it as more of a science and I would rather be as precise as possible and use all the tools that I have available to make the training optimal. That doesn't mean checking your GPS watch every 2 seconds during a cruise interval session in June; it just means you go into workouts with a plan that's a bit more specific than "run comfortably hard."

Someone remarked (above) that people are injecting their own ideas into this discussion of the SoM. I think it'd be useful to re-read the man's work:

http://pih.bc.ca/summerofmalmo.html

Doing the tempo run *on the track* certainly makes it easier to get a feel for tempo pace, that you can then duplicate off the track. (I think Daniels also recommends doing this.) But for me, the main thing is George's point about working with a group. People seem to let that go, the same way that a lot of people let go of Lydiard's *varied* speeds, including a fartlek session, during the base period.

If you put a good group together, and guys are mature enough not to race (and if you're really putting in the doubles/total mileage, racing in training won't be very tempting), then you'll sort of work it out on a group basis. I'd urge people to re-read the example that George gives of two fit guys working with two who are "getting there" and two who are just plain out of shape.

Get used to running with others, preferably close enough so that you could extend an arm and touch someone. You need to be comfortable running in close quarters--that's a specific skill, and this is the time to develop it.

Get used to sorting things out as a group, with some give and take from everybody. Learn how to get useful Goldilocks training (not too hard, not too easy) while still accommodating others. Studies have shown that the best *competitors* are those who are comfortable with other people, not the "lone wolf" types.

Different things work for different people, but I think the Summer of Malmo can work for a *lot* of folks, if they actually buy into the entire thing and not just bits and pieces. If you haven't read it in a while, seriously: read it again.

says the guy crushing his teammates in workouts but getting blown away in races. 'comfortably hard' no equal 'hurts'.races should hurt, workouts should only rarely hurt.

mgm wrote:

I'm with Slippery Pete on this one

The problem with going by feel is the subjectivity it engenders in the mind of someone of who thinks that "tempo" should feel relaxed.

Truth is, lactate threshold training (if that's what we mean by tempo and not steady-state or aerobic threshold training) HURTS. It's not a comfortable pace. People perceive "comfortably hard" in different ways.

If you tell me to go out and run by feel, I will most likely settle into a rhythm that places me too much inside my comfort zone and LT training is designed to target a specific physiological state.

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

I guess it's just two different ways of looking at training. Some people (particularly the people on this board, it seems) look at training as more of an art-form. I think of it as more of a science and I would rather be as precise as possible and use all the tools that I have available to make the training optimal. That doesn't mean checking your GPS watch every 2 seconds during a cruise interval session in June; it just means you go into workouts with a plan that's a bit more specific than "run comfortably hard."

No, it's not two different ways of looking at training. There may be a science to hitting precise LT paces, but there's no science to support the notion that one should be hitting precise LT paces all year long. I've done lactate testing on a treadmill, and I was very serious about hitting precise paces when was in preparation for racing. But in the offseason or introductory phase, there's no reason to worry about hitting LT pace exactly. What matters is getting a variety of stimuli, which will (1) increase general aerobic development, (2) increase economy, and (3) prepare the body for more specific workouts as the athlete approaches key competitions.

Speaking of subjective, I don't really know what "lactate threshold" training is. But if you say that "the truth is that it HURTS", we are surely not talking about the same thing.Why do you think you are unable to feel changes in your own physiological state?

mgm wrote:

I'm with Slippery Pete on this one

The problem with going by feel is the subjectivity it engenders in the mind of someone of who thinks that "tempo" should feel relaxed.

Truth is, lactate threshold training (if that's what we mean by tempo and not steady-state or aerobic threshold training) HURTS. It's not a comfortable pace. People perceive "comfortably hard" in different ways.

If you tell me to go out and run by feel, I will most likely settle into a rhythm that places me too much inside my comfort zone and LT training is designed to target a specific physiological state.

By all means, be as scientifically precise as you want in defining your plans, and going into training. The only problem with purely objective science is that people are fuzzy. Which famous coach/athlete has succeeded and claimed that ignoring personal feedback was a key to their success -- they succeeded by sticking to their scientific predictions?BTW, this is a Summer of Malmo thread. If we were to list the top 10 goals of Summer of Malmo, you will not find "optimal tempo training".

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

I guess it's just two different ways of looking at training. Some people (particularly the people on this board, it seems) look at training as more of an art-form. I think of it as more of a science and I would rather be as precise as possible and use all the tools that I have available to make the training optimal. That doesn't mean checking your GPS watch every 2 seconds during a cruise interval session in June; it just means you go into workouts with a plan that's a bit more specific than "run comfortably hard."

LT pace should be touched upon all year in varying degrees or else you're following an outdated linear concept of periodization

800 dude wrote:

No, it's not two different ways of looking at training. There may be a science to hitting precise LT paces, but there's no science to support the notion that one should be hitting precise LT paces all year long. I've done lactate testing on a treadmill, and I was very serious about hitting precise paces when was in preparation for racing. But in the offseason or introductory phase, there's no reason to worry about hitting LT pace exactly. What matters is getting a variety of stimuli, which will (1) increase general aerobic development, (2) increase economy, and (3) prepare the body for more specific workouts as the athlete approaches key competitions.

If running at one-hour race pace in workouts doesn't feel uncomfortable then I suggest you re-evaluate your "one-hour race pace" or sign up for the next 15K in your area and actually race it. [quote]rekrunner wrote:

Speaking of subjective, I don't really know what "lactate threshold" training is. But if you say that "the truth is that it HURTS", we are surely not talking about the same thing.

Why do you think you are unable to feel changes in your own physiological state?

[quote]mgm wrote: