Daniels Tempo run question

Tinman, don't waste your time even replying to Sol Richards, the guys an idiot.

Tinman's comments are consistent with my experience. 10-milers at marathon or a little slower pace worked really well for me. Unlike an earlier poster, I found them psychologically easier than 4M tempos. (I undoubtedly did my tmepos too fast, though.)

Thanks for your feedback. I find too that some people enjoy and have very positive results from doing aerobic threshold runs vs LT tempo runs, which are faster. In my training schedules designed for the athletes I coach, I tend to use a lot more aerobic threshold tempo than LT tempo runs. Then, I use regual interval workouts at faster paces to balance out the schedules. The feedback I am receiving from athletes is becoming very much in favor of the slower but longer tempo runs. Your input is appreciated. Tinman

Are there any perceivable inidicators? Such as slight increase in respiration, transition from "talk test" ranges to "working, I can't talk without effort", etc? It seems that there are lots of shades in training pace that are useful, but not every one of these guys has an effort or cues associated with it.

Tinman wrote:

Thanks for your feedback. I find too that some people enjoy and have very positive results from doing aerobic threshold runs vs LT tempo runs, which are faster. In my training schedules designed for the athletes I coach, I tend to use a lot more aerobic threshold tempo than LT tempo runs. Then, I use regual interval workouts at faster paces to balance out the schedules. The feedback I am receiving from athletes is becoming very much in favor of the slower but longer tempo runs. Your input is appreciated. Tinman

I think the reason I find it harder to do the 10 milers at MP pace is because MP pace is too fast in light of the OBLA point being 50-60 seconds slower than 5k pace. I tend to be running right at my LT threshold (minus a percent or two). If that's the case, then, yeah, a 10 miler would be more along the lines of my temperment as a runner. Like I said in the beginning, I'm trying to find the appropriate paces for the best development. JTD's 4-milers seems solid but challenging; I was trying to find a way to bridge the effort of the 4-milers with the slightly more laid back intensity of the 10-milers while still getting the same benefits. However, the aerobic threshold tips are clearly valuable.

I can't seem to get the feel for marathon pace without doing LT work regularly, conversely I can't find LT without doing marathon pace regularly. I used to do a lot of tempo runs at aerobic threshold pace in college and the first few years out of school, but I've switched to exclusively LT and MP. LT and MP are much tougher, but I feel they're more effective for me to punch down that threshold. Most runners I've trained with seem to prefer the aerobic threshold tempo runs of 6-10 miles. However, most runners I've trained with, including myself up until recently, are fairly underdeveloped in the LT department. Maybe more folks should try the tougher LT and MP work, even if its less popular.

On a side note, I spent some time training in Kenya a few years back and was shocked at the amount of aerobic work being done. One or two structured workouts a week at what Jack would call Interval Pace(5k + a few seconds), such as 10 times 3 minutes on/one minute off. The daily runs started at 9 minutes/mile for a few miles and then exploded to 5:20 pace by mile 5 then at 5 minute pace or better through 10 miles, with an all out last kilo. Every morning. Some folks might take that to mean we need to throw out all our theory and just run progressive runs and we'll be the best. I've tried it, massively overtrained. The LT, MP, E, I, R, and VDOT works, and belive it or not, its worked for Kenyans who've tried it too.

Peter,

When you tried the progressive runs and overtrained how did you work up to it?

Peter,

Can you be more specific about, "at what Jack would call Interval Pace(5k + a few seconds), such as 10 times 3 minutes on/one minute off."? Is this more like 10k pace, 5k + ~12 sec? At altitude, it would seem this intensity would be hard to keep up for that duration compared to the more standard equal rest/work of most VO2 work.

A couple examples of unstructured I (VO2max) work from DRF are 3 mins on/2 mins recovery and 4 mins on/3 mins recovery, where the "on" pace is 3k to 5k race pace and recovery is easy jogging. At altitude, your 5k race pace would be slower, and thus, so would your I pace. I think Pfitzinger uses pretty much the same terminology/paces/workouts.

Before going over there I got in a standard fall of working out, getting ready for cross races. 100 miles/week, 1-2 tempo sessions/week aerobic threshold style, 1-2 sessions of repeat 200s, some fast fartlek work every few weeks. I was fit and able to do the training in Kenya. Never got dropped in a workout or daily progressive run. Problem was, I didn't race any faster after I came back to the states. 6 weeks of perfect training, no injuries, felt great, learned a lot, but no improvement. Since I've been working with Jack I've had steady improvement, no injuries, and I think I can keep it up for years, which is the name of the game in the marathon.

As for it being tough to run interval pace at altitude, it is, but its tough at sea level too. When you go to altitude you just go slower. The rest was less and that was tough. I now take about 4 minutes rest per mile of interval work. The term interval pace being a JD term. Check out the charts in the book. If I go to the track by myself and run 3 or 4 x mile at I pace with 4 minutes rest each mile is as fast as I can go. Some guys might have an easier time with that pace, but for me its awful.

I think any one workout is not a panacea. A variety of paces and or intensities is essential for growth. The beauty of using aerobic threshold running it doesn't break you down and it can be done every week of the year, formally or informally. I find that runners who neglect it, though, do not seem to benefit as much from interval paces training or rep training. Working on the middle ground has been a taboo topic and a neglected area for many years now in America.

MP is only about 3% faster than aerobic threshold, so MP serves as an excellent builder of efficiency too. I just think that MP is tough on the body and has to be considered a stress workout whereas aerobic threshold can be done regularly and frequently. If one is a marathoner, then MP is essential. If one is a 10 runner, then aerobic threshold along with faster long intervals and short reps is a better mix, in my opinion. Tinman

I'd argue that the middle ground, i.e. aerobic threshold pace, has been far from neglected. Aside from easy running, it is the only aerobic work that most American distance runners fit into their schedule. I can count on one hand the number of guys I've trained with that do strict LT work. Everyone else does the MP + a few seconds per mile. Usually starting slower and finishing faster. If you go up to any college/post college runner and ask them to describe a tempo run, it'll be what I described above. This isn't new, I've read Malmo descibe tempo runs in much the same style. My point is that if everyone is doing this aerobic threshold work as their primary means of aerobic training, and we as a country are way behind the world in the aerobic events, then something is wrong.

I believe that my generation was taught the wrong way to train. We were protected from high mileage, always quality over quantity, limited racing, no training on asphalt, intense intervals, and light tempo runs. The results was the Great Depression of American Distance Running. Now I'm doing everything ass backwards and its working. 140 a week, 7 minute pace easy days, lots of races, running on the roads daily, hardly any intervals, and tough LT and MP work. It all comes out of Jack's training.

How's that for a tangent! Tempo runs to the great depression. Too much coffee, another thing I was supposed to avoid.

I ran 5:50 half marathon pace in late June. Even splits throughout and felt pretty good. I know this may be a dumb question but i will ask anyway. When i try and do MP runs, 10-12 miles at 6:00 to 6:05 pace, i hit my times but feel tired at the end, not controlled. I know its supposed to be tough, but what i worry about is if it doesnt feel all that good only going 10-12 miles , how am i going to go 26 miles?

Tinman, should i adjust my marathon predictions? I can breeze through Daniels workouts otherwise, 3x3200 in 10:50, etc. Others tell me to not underestimate how i will feel tapered and stick to my predicted paces. Please help

Your friends are correct. It way feel 10 times easier off a taper than in the middle or end of a tough week. If you can hit the MP pace, do it- it is not meant to be easy. The benefits you get from it will make it seem easier come race day. I think Tinman would agree

Also add some 4-7 mile runs around 5:45-5:50 pace, that should help your MP runs.

I like to run 20min, 4-6 slightly faster than hm pace, then cool down 3-4miles.

I would have to know more details about your training to pinpoint what the trouble is. As a general rule, you need some training faster than MP to make MP feel comfortable, if you are going to race the marathon. For marathoners, LT work is a very good form of stress training; speedwork per se. Think of LT as about 6% faster than marathon race pace, which is plenty of stimulus to improve the comfort level of marathon pace. It would be akin to a 4:00 miler running quarters in 56.4 seconds. Do enough miles at LT pace and your intended MP feels much easier. Now add endurance and strength to those LT reps and you will be able to hold MP much longer, therefore improving your race time.

To me, if you can run 16 miles in training at your intended marathon pace while doing heavy marathon training, you will be able to hold that pace once tapered. Right now it sounds like your 10-12 miles at 6:00-6:05 pace is very difficult to do. Therefore, either back the goal off by a littel, say to 6:10-15 or do some more endurance and LT work so that 6:00 feels easier. You may need to just do more tempo runs at your intended marathon pace so that you become more efficient, too.

If you need more personal help, then email to me and I will advise you.

runfastcoach@hotmail.com

Another suggestion, run 18-22 milers every other week, alternating one mile at 7:00, one mile at 6:00. Make sure you have an electrolyte station set up for you to consume fluids or have a spouse or friend bike along your side with fluids. Tinman

Great discussion.

Tinman, what do you mean when you say Marthon pace is only about 3% faster than aerobic threshold?

What is aerobic threshold?