I guess you never stopped smoking and still play with liquid mercury. Forget studies. You don't need them.
obvious2 wrote:
No study needed. It's obvious. Have faith grasshopper.
I guess you never stopped smoking and still play with liquid mercury. Forget studies. You don't need them.
obvious2 wrote:
No study needed. It's obvious. Have faith grasshopper.
context matters a lot. If the team's ultimate goal is to do well during the championship season they might be training through these invitationals. Going hard on back to back days is also beneficial for runners in some states and sections that run trials and finals on back to back days in track season (California NCS Meet of Champions, California state meet).
It probably does not make much difference
Are we really arguing about the importance of in-season workouts? It would take at least 3-4 of those workouts (assuming he isn't killing anyone) to actually improve someone's ability. Even then, you can't tell if it is the workouts or racing that is really the reason behind an athlete's improvement, I believe in the accumulation of workouts though the season having an effect, but I also believe the body is a lot more tolerable than most think. However, when you are dealing with young minds who aren't used to workouts like that.....then racing the next day, I think staleness is a likely result. I would prefer to hit my homeruns when they count. I can tell you one thing for sure, the fitness the kid already possesses coming into the season has much more importance than the in-season workouts. Just like basketball, if the kid can't come to practice already possessing the skills of shooting and dribbling, no in-season training is going to have enough of an effect to ensure the kid hits their ultimate potential in that sport.
markboen wrote:
Could you please cite the reference for your "evidence that *very* brief bursts within 24 hours of a race may be helpful?" I would love to see a study (or two) on this topic.
A fair request. Unfortunately, I gave all my books and videos to other folks in my Great LRC Giveaway, a few years back.
I started doing this kind of early bird/burst work with my sprinters/hurdlers/horizontal jumpers in track, actually, following some Soviet research that was reported (in the West) in the early-mid '80s. At that time I shared the research results (basically that this kind of work resulted in elevated levels of power and reaction ability, some hours later) with our swim coach, who started having a starts-and-turns session on the mornings of meets and was very surprised by the results.
Within the last year or two, I've seen some stuff--maybe linked from this site?--that discussed the benefits for longer-duration events of this kind of prep. I do remember that benefits were found, even if the alactic spurts were done the day before the competition.
I apologize for not having the sources to give you. I'm not coaching anymore, so I no longer earmark/collect the technical things that I read.
In any case, *introducing* such short-duration, intense work on the day before a meet would be a poor idea!--it would need to be a drill that was introduced earlier in the season (or in the summer). And, whether performed as part of a training session or a meet-prep drill, it would need to be done just after the warmup, when the neuromuscular system is most receptive to this kind of alactic work.
I know a few schools that do it. It is popular with Paavo schools. Southlake carrol often does a 400 repeat type workout out. Columbus North from Indiana always does this, for every meet, even state and nationals. And they've won state for I believe 4 years straight now and took 3rd an NXN 2 years ago. My school is a Paavo school, we usually just do strides the day before, but sometimes we do workouts right after a meet.
The PAAVO "repeats" the day before a meet are not "speed work" as there is no lactic acid build up. That interval workout stresses the aerobic capacity so that it is maximized for the race the next day. Oxygen is king.
I actually really like that type of work the day before. Usually my best races were races that I had the day after a race like at a conference championship. Usually it was a hard mile the day before a 3k. But I also like doing an uptempo mile or 2 the day before a race, which usually give me the same effect of relaxedness and feeling like the race pace is slow comparably.
lease wrote:
Thursday--DAY BEFORE MEET (Oct 10) [9 miles]
AM 3 miles - strides
PM warm up 1 mile jog
10x220 @ 30 average pace
calisthenics
10x220 @ 30 average pace
cables
10x220 @ 33 average pace
warm down 1 mile jog
wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)
warm down 1 mile jog
kicking in pool
Friday (Oct 11) [4 miles]
AM warm up 1 mile jog
PM CROSS COUNTRY MEET (2 miler)
warm down 1 mile jog
why calisthenics ?
Uncle Systematic wrote:
My son's high school coach has the team do a speed session on Fridays - the day before their invitational XC races on Saturday. It is usually a "moderate" one... something like 6 x 400m and some long striders.
Their week usually looks like this:
Monday -- hard speed workout, usually long intervals or hills
Tuesday -- dual meet (typically not run all out)
Wednesday -- easy day
Thursday -- Distance day + strides
Friday -- Moderate speed day
Saturday -- Invitational
Sunday -- off, or slow distance day
The speed days before races puzzle me, especially the one on Friday.
Can a coach out there help me understand the logic behind this? I am not so critical of it (as he seems to be a great coach) as I am curious. What is the point of doing this on Friday?
It`s not logic. It`s a way of losing energy that the runner needs on the race day.
There was an Irishman called John Lenihan who won the World Mountain Racing Championship and was a very good road racer at distances below the marathon. He liked to do a session of 6 x 400 on the day before a race. He thought doing a little fast running the day before a race made him sharper for the race. I always felt sort of awkward early in a race if I took it too easy on the day before a race. You're not going to lose energy in something that short unless you're flogging yourself.
rob' wrote:
lease wrote:
Thursday--DAY BEFORE MEET (Oct 10) [9 miles]
AM 3 miles - strides
PM warm up 1 mile jog
10x220 @ 30 average pace
calisthenics
10x220 @ 30 average pace
cables
10x220 @ 33 average pace
warm down 1 mile jog
wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)
warm down 1 mile jog
kicking in pool
Friday (Oct 11) [4 miles]
AM warm up 1 mile jog
PM CROSS COUNTRY MEET (2 miler)
warm down 1 mile jog
why calisthenics ?
Timmy (Bob Timmons, Ryun's coach that year in HS--and later his coach at Kansas) was firmly of the opinion that, while resting one muscle group or energy system, you could be working another. His practices involved action pretty much all the time--"rests" were not spent standing around.
I should also point out, however--as I don't think I did when I initially posted this (five years ago?!)--that Timmy's teams always trained through every meet in the regular season. The only meet that mattered to them was States.
lease wrote:
rob' wrote:
why calisthenics ?
Timmy (Bob Timmons, Ryun's coach that year in HS--and later his coach at Kansas) was firmly of the opinion that, while resting one muscle group or energy system, you could be working another. His practices involved action pretty much all the time--"rests" were not spent standing around.
I should also point out, however--as I don't think I did when I initially posted this (five years ago?!)--that Timmy's teams always trained through every meet in the regular season. The only meet that mattered to them was States.
I can't recall, but did Timmons ever produce a champion other than Ryun?
Uncle Systematic wrote:
My son's high school coach has the team do a speed session on Fridays - the day before their invitational XC races on Saturday. It is usually a "moderate" one... something like 6 x 400m and some long striders.
Their week usually looks like this:
Monday -- hard speed workout, usually long intervals or hills
Tuesday -- dual meet (typically not run all out)
Wednesday -- easy day
Thursday -- Distance day + strides
Friday -- Moderate speed day
Saturday -- Invitational
Sunday -- off, or slow distance day
The speed days before races puzzle me, especially the one on Friday.
Can a coach out there help me understand the logic behind this? I am not so critical of it (as he seems to be a great coach) as I am curious. What is the point of doing this on Friday?
My question would be about the Tuesday dual meet (typically not run all out). This makes no sense to me at all. Doing some sharpening the day before any meet may be fine. One guy said they do 200s at 30, 200s at 30, and then a final set of 200s at 33. Why would you slow down?
Another coach said it matters what you have done before and your team's journey. I agree that you have to adapt for each kid. But you should probably teach a system to your team. Remember in that whatever we are doing we should be teaching.
I'm thinking that 200 workout was from Jim Ryun's coach. I'd guess it only made sense for one of his athletes.
Pappy wrote:
I'm thinking that 200 workout was from Jim Ryun's coach. I'd guess it only made sense for one of his athletes.
No---Timmons had good teams. The fact is we did not know as much in those days as we do now.
Timmons and Ryun should be regarded as important pioneers of the sport.
How many people realize that Ryun peaked in 1967 at age 21? Would that happen today?
Timmons also coached Archie San Romani, Jr. at Wichita East. 4:10 in HS, NCAA runner-up for Oregon, sub 4 minute miler
YMMV wrote:
I can't recall, but did Timmons ever produce a champion other than Ryun?
Tons, in swimming (while coaching high school) and running. Countless state high school championships. At Kansas his track teams won four NCAA championships.
One of his high school runners was Archie San Romani, Jr., who set the national high school mile record (4:08.9) in the 1950s.
One of his high school swimmers, Jeff Farrell, went on to win two golds in the Olympics.
At KU Timmy coached people like Cliff Wiley, Mark Lutz, Sam Colson, Jan Johnson, Terry Porter, and Tyke Peacock. He had seventy-some all-Americans at Kansas, and a couple dozen NCAA champs.
waltertompatton wrote:
Pappy wrote:
I'm thinking that 200 workout was from Jim Ryun's coach. I'd guess it only made sense for one of his athletes.
No---Timmons had good teams. The fact is we did not know as much in those days as we do now.
Timmons and Ryun should be regarded as important pioneers of the sport.
How many people realize that Ryun peaked in 1967 at age 21? Would that happen today?
Timmons, didn't have many good teams for a legendary coach. Compared to today very few.
Timmons and Ryun are regarded as pioneers. Only because Ryun was a beast.
Ryun peaking at 21 is speculative.
Chances are if he truly peaked that young it was from all the pioneering intervals and repeats he ran. Ryun was one of the greatest of all time but his training is more of a "what not to do" than a "how to" for training. He probably peaked at 21 because his excessive intense training caught up to him in the form of illness and injury. One could easily argue his coach or coaches burned him up. I doubt Ryun reached his potential. What he did in '67 is incredible but chances are with better coaching he'd of been faster and healthier for longer.
I've never seen any negative comments from Ryun anywhere about the training he did or the coaching he got. He has mentioned the pressure he felt from the press and public leading to the Mexico Olympics and in the weeks afterward. And he was never able to find a job that would support his family while training and racing seriously. I also don't think he reached his potential but I don't think it was because of a training issue.