Is Levy really "breaking all the rules?"

Actually, it's funny, this coach is having his athletes do at least as much, if not more, quality/speed than most coaches.

To wit:

"“When you think about it, hills are really speed work in disguise. We do hills every other day, and on days when we don’t do hills we do strides (8 x 30 seconds). We are getting ‘speed,’ but in different form.

And they race a LOT (sometimes doing multiple races).

So hilly runs 3 days a week, where they push the up-hills (this is not much different than fartlek style training, or a more regimented workout of 45sec-1 minute "pickups" that has been the bread and butter of many runners, and which absolutely should still be considered quality/fast/speed training), and 3 days a week of doing essentially 8 x 200 at the end of long workout, AND lots of races.

That's a lot of quality and speed. So what's the big difference? Not actually being on the track? Okay. Not actually trying to hit specific times? Okay. Sure, that's a little different, but not as big a difference as they contend, and certainly not an "all base/zero interval", or all-endurance/zero-quality/speed program like they are acting like it is (unless "base" training means, well anything you want it to mean). PLenty of good runners use HR monitors instead of paces to measure quality intervals, and others go by feel. Hey, Bob Schul did (virtually) zero timed intervals before he won the 5k gold in '64. Sure, he ran 100m-200m repeats by feel with no watch all day long, but yeah, let's call that a "no interval" program too.

And they probably run close to 70 miles a week!

sound like a more disguised speed work. If you have a fartlek of 6 X 3 minutes it doesn't seem as hard as say 6 x1k on the track. Plus when you run fartleks on trails or roads you are running more by feel then trying to hit a pace which doesn't reck the body. Or say they do hill fartleks and that is like intervals if they are running them in sets. I personally like to switch things up and get on the track. I like to run track intervals once a week and then do a tempo or fartlek on the trails to keep the legs feeling good. Too much of anything gets boring.

Sorry, but they never run together. Levy created a chart based on "run how you feel." They are of different ability levels and feel different on any given day of the week, therefore, Levy, specifically, tells them not to run together and besides like I said before they run by my house on their hill days 3x a week and I can tell you they are by themselves.

The girls have no desire to do workouts so they might, in fact, continue this throughout the Spring.

They may not do intervals on the track but they run a heck of a lot. three 65 minute runs and a 90 minute run. That's like 40 miles in 4 days...that's insane for high school girls and really not necessary.

Who says it's too much? The girls are happy, injury free, running better than they ever have and some at a pretty high level. The system obviously works for North Shore. You have to know your audience as a coach.

Also, an hour of exercise is recommended for all children from the elementary age up to high school. Most kids are in their house playing video games. These girls are exercising together and just so happen to be on a competitive xc/track team. As I said before they are socializing and talking to each other without texting or using Facebook. I don't understand how this is a negative thing.

Lawdy, maybe 50 miles of comfortable running a week! Call Child Protective Services!

Teagan wrote:

They may not do intervals on the track but they run a heck of a lot. three 65 minute runs and a 90 minute run. That's like 40 miles in 4 days...that's insane for high school girls and really not necessary.

there is a video on flotrack of theathletes running up a hill together-- they don't run alone

Wrong.http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/240313-Flotrack-High-School-Elite-50/video/511047-North-Shore-High-School-Strength

coach wrote:

there is a video on flotrack of theathletes running up a hill together-- they don't run alone

If you watch the video some run together and some run alone. The two top girls that are running together have been best friends since kindergarten, are of similar ability and were being filmed for Flotrack. There's no written rule for them. Believe me I'm there I watch it every week. My daughter and her friends jump on the trampoline cheering them on and now her and her friends run mini loops like them.

Levy seems like one solid dude:

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/240313-Flotrack-High-School-Elite-50/video/510144-Coach-Neal-Levy-Creates-Powerhouse-at-North-Shore

neighborhood runner wrote:

Sorry, but they never run together. Levy created a chart based on "run how you feel." They are of different ability levels and feel different on any given day of the week, therefore, Levy, specifically, tells them not to run together and besides like I said before they run by my house on their hill days 3x a week and I can tell you they are by themselves.

"When I watch them run by my house they are all very happy. It's a social thing for them they run together, talk and spend time with one another."

Now which is it, ace? First they run together, then they don't?

Get your story straight.

Girls running by themselves is dangerous. Especially when weirdos like this guy are watching them from inside his house.

Girls: never run alone!!!!!

watching little kids out the window? Jerry Sandusky?

Haha. I'm the Middle School Coach and a Mom. The girls run together on easy runs and are running conversational pace. During their hill workouts they separate more. As I said before, it's based on how they feel each day. No rhyme or reason. Some of them run to my practice jog in place to chat, ect. It's really very simple. I do agree, however, that they are doing workouts in disguise. But not formal interval training. They do up to 45 hills per week and 24 x approximately 200meters per week. A 90 minuted run for the older girls and a 70minute run for the younger girls. But, they are happy, healthy, improving and are injury free. It's more like a running club.

Man, I would have looved to have run for this guy. No lung scotching intervals or obsession on times.. the stimulus is there but not the pressure.

I have no problem with this training plan. However, I enjoyed my standard trainign in high school. I didn't worry about the intervals and just went out there and ran. I wanted a college scholarship and didn't mind the effort needed to get one. I didn't think there was a lack of comaraderie because we did intervals weekly. I thought we were more of a unit because we toughed out the intervals together, like men fighting a battle together.

In response to your statement:

On what basis do you determine how much mileage is too high or too low for high school female runners? A couple of points to consider:

If a 17:00 5k female runs for 65 minutes on a run and runs approximately 8.5-9 miles on their run, my guess is you would say that is too much. However if a 24:00 girl runs 65 minutes on a run averaging 9:00 per mile on their runs they would cover approximately 7 miles. (1.5-2 miles less per day)-a significant amount over time.

Just because a high performing female can cover a greater amount of area in 65 minutes, it is the amount of time on their feet which is still 65 minutes.

In addition if the North Shore Girls are only doing distance runs (incorporating strides afterwards) then the amount of stress will be far less than if they were doing standard interval workouts twice a week + lets say a 50 minute run.

Training over time by remaining healthy both mentally and physically is what's important, not how many miles someone does.

Mileage is just a number. How you get to that number is what matters.

Mtn Dew wrote:Most high schools that are told to go run an hour on a hilly course are going to do a lot of walking.

Really? I would be surprised if most would walk on any hour-long run, whether it's on flat ground or on hills. Seems like the only kids that would do that would be the extremely weak, unmotivated or dispassionate.

We ran hills almost every day. Often our runs were around an hour. The only time we stopped was at stoplights. If you have kids stopping on runs or walking on runs... something is wrong, because that isn't "normal" for runners (IMO).

As for the OP - Leavy's approach doesn't seem to be "breaking the rules" to me, but that's probably because we don't have an indoor season here and the "breaking the rules" part is, I think, talking about how he's essentially only doing base work during the indoor season (not always the case for coaches in states with an indoor season) yet they are still running well.

Leavy's approach (mileage + hills and strides) is basically what I promote for winter and summer training as well, with the only difference being I think tempos and/or progression runs are important.

Again... I think the "breaking the rules" part is about how he is ignoring interval training (and other track work and tempo runs) even though it is a "racing season" for the state he coaches in. But it might not be so uncommon for schools that focus on spring track and/or cross country. Indoor is the sport of the "off" season for those teams, and most of the country that don't have an indoor track season.