Coe, ovett, cram head to head stats?

two good schools wrote:

I knew you'd pop back up to contest that, because it would shift the Coe-Ovett head to head ranking!

A funny response, yes? I've raced and officiated 4 x 5k, 4 x 8k and 4 x 12k events for years (including internationally) and at the end of each meet the winning team usually gets a trophy and/or medals or a lousy certificate. Then splits are all ranked and the fasted usually also gets a trophy, or a medal or a lousy certificate.

There was also a 4 x 800m relay which set the WR, if I can recall properly Coe ran the fastest split. Track relays are problematic though as the first runner is usually slower (blocks, calling, baton delivery and extra-distance).

Deanouk wrote:

You can't really compare times from different legs in a relay, as it depends on where their team were and what competition they had around them.

If the relay legs were all run on the same course in the competition then comparing relay times in a competition is the ultimate comparison of pure fitness that exists in running. It is like comparing cyclists in the time trial stages of a race - on those stages you truly see who is the fittest cylist.

I agree - you can compare relay legs from the same event on the same day. I actually ran in those relays every year back in the day and everyone accepted that Ovett would beat Coe over those kinds of distances.

LOL. So we should include a school X country race, markedly over distance compared to their best event, when Ovett was a year older (16) than Coe (15), but not 2 Olympic finals and a race from 1989 when Ovett "should have been retired"?

That is a nonsense.

It's a great shame that Ovett was not well in LA, and he was brave (and a bit stupid!) to carry on and run in both finals. Of course he wasn't at his best, and he would very likely have medaled in the 1500m without the problems, but if you're going to exempt races when an athlete wasn't at his best, then you can remove other clashes from the list. Coe was ill when beaten by Cram in 83 and was coming back from injury and a month out when beaten by Cram in the Oslo mile 85! Should we exempt those races too?

I don't think Coe beating Ovett in the Moscow 1500m was a surprise to quite a few observers actually. Any one who analysed the 800m final would have realised that Coe was running faster on the last lap in the 800 final and was closing on Ovett over the last 200m, despite running about 3.5m extra on the last bend. Certainly Ron Clarke could see that and spoke of it at the time.

Coe was the World record holder for the 1500m going into that Moscow final, so there was a suggestion he was good enough to win.

Sir Bastion Newbold wrote:

I agree - you can compare relay legs from the same event on the same day. I actually ran in those relays every year back in the day and everyone accepted that Ovett would beat Coe over those kinds of distances.

You can if they ran the same leg together.

Comparing 2 splits from different legs run at different times during the race is interesting, and can even suggest the relative forms of two athletes, but they can't be used to claim a defeat of one over the other!

If you're going to do that, then you might as well compare times set in different heats, which would have been run much closer together, in the 78 Europeans, 80 Olympics, 83 Worlds, 84 Olympics, 86 Europeans!

E.g. When Coe ran 2 laps of the Prague track in 1:46.81 to win his heat, he ran faster than Ovett's 1:47.8 in his heat, the same afternoon. Does that mean he defeated Ovett? No, because they weren't running head to head.

Of course neither the relay split not the heats should count. As Ovett famously said, "I run to win, not to run fast times".

Come on deano. In a relay we are looking for the fastest overall time - therefore you run as fast as you can for your leg. In a heat, you just do enough to qualify for the next round.

Your're not stupid. You know this.

Lol, I'm being assailed by all sides here.

Yeah, it is a bit silly to include the cross country. My point was though that up to the 1500 final Ovett had beaten Coe twice on the big stage when Coe had the better time. Hadn't he (Coe) just broken the UK 800m record when he lost to Ovett in the 78 Europeans? And Coe was a heavy favourite going in to Moscow for the 800 as he'd ran a second faster than anybody else in history and nearly 2 seconds faster than Ovett. After the 800 debacle there was a strong feeling that Coe couldn't handle the big races and Ovett was simply too good when it counted. Yes it wasn't a complete shock when Coe won but you can tell by his reaction when he crossed the line in first that he must have been full of doubts going in to that race.

As for Coe running the last lap quicker than Ovett, I thought that Ovett ran the quickest (still) 2nd lap in any major championship? Coe was certainly finishing faster in the home straight but then again Ovett had run faster to be in front :)

Well I guess heats and semis shouldn't be counted but it's clear in both Moscow and LA that Ovett was faster than Cram in their semi and Cram was faster than Ovett in the LA semi.

Although I think Coe would have beaten Ovett that day no matter what performance Ovett produced, I think it's clear Ovett was not 100%, either through motivation having gotten his gold or because as legend has it he spent the days after his win partying hard. Another factor is Straub, who handed Coe the gold on a plate by taking it out from 700m, probably only able to do that because he was drugged to the gils.

I didn't start this thread, I just came across it yesterday. I don't thin it proves anything but I thought I'd complete the gaps just for posterity's sake.

Pictures:

Scroll down some....

http://www.runningentertainment.com/runningshots31.html

I usually agree with most of what you write on here, and I must admit that yes, Coe was a big favourite for the 800m in Moscow (much more so than Ovett was for the 1500 prior to Moscow), and that Joe Public generally thought that Ovett would win the 1500 after beating Coe in the 8. But, quite a few in the sport could see that Coe had run so badly (tactically) in the 8 and had made so many mistakes, yet had still managed to get the silver. If he could just run a decent tactical race in the 15 final, it would be hard for anyone to beat him.

Officially, Ovett ran the fastest 2nd lap in the 800m final, 50.5, which I believe is still the fastest 2nd 400m in an 800 Championship race. So yes, you are right. Officially Coe's 2nd lap was 50.7, but whereas Ovett maybe ran 1m extra on that 2nd lap, Coe ran both bends in lane 2. The absolute minimum he ran on the 2nd lap was 7m extra (it's 2.91m extra for 1 bend run on the line between 1 and 2) , meaning 50.7 for 407m = 49.8 for 400m!

Basically, Coe was the faster guy by a long way on the 2nd lap, and had the rest of the field disappeared at the bell and both guys run the same second lap, Coe would have won. Of course, Ovett did what he needed to do to win, and I'm sure he could have run a bit faster if he needed to, but I don't think he was capable of a 50 flat 2nd lap, let alone sub 50.

Coe's last 200m was 24.9, (compared to Ovett's 25.0) again, for more like 203.5m, which is 24.5 speed for 200m. As his last 100m was 12.6 (Ovett's 12.7) , it means he was operating at 11.9 speed around the last bend.

They actually ran each other in secret. They met 38 times on the road. It was a 19 to 19 tie between 1979 and 1986

Coe beat Cruz when Cruz was 18 years old. Yes.

Cram was only 18 in 1979 for the season, not turning 19 until mid October, and so he was only 19 in 1980, but as long as those are counted, when the others were already at their peak, why not count the 1972 xc (15 and 16 is closer in age and fairer than 18 and 23/24 (Coe) and 24/25 (Ovett)).

Ovett beat Bile comfortably in 86 over 1500m, just a year before Bile won the World Champioship (and beat Cram), and when Ovett had already moved up to the 5000m (and was in his 30's).

Coe lost to Bile by a vest in 89 after being impeded by him. He also beat Cacho in that race. So Coe had victories over Filbert Bayi, the 1974 Commonwealth Champion (in 77), and Cacho the 92 Olympic Champion and 96 silver medalist (in 89).

But I take your point. Cram beating the Olympic 800 champion and the 5000 champion in the same season was exceptional.

Those Coe ages should be one less except for competitions after September 29, his birthday.

Coe, Cram, and Ovett all had birthdays in late September or October, so most of their bests would be late in the lower age that year. At the same age, here are yearly bests for Coe, Cram, and Ovett:

Age 17 Ovett 1:47.34; Coe n/t; Cram 3:40.09/3:57.42 Ovett and Cram>Coe. Ovett and Cram about equal.
Age 18 Ovett 1:45.76 (faster than current US hs record) Coe 3:45.2h 1500; Cram 8:05.18 3k (no times at 800/1500/mile in 1979)
Age 19 Ovett 1:46.09; Coe 3:58.35 mile; Cram 3:34.74/3:53.8h Cram and Ovett>Coe; Cram>Ovett but no overlap
Age 20 Ovett 1:45.44/3:37.89; Coe 1:44.95; Cram 1:46.29/3:49.95 Coe>Ovett>Cram at 800; Cram's mile is far superior to Ovett's 1500, n/t for Coe
Age 21 Ovett 3:34.45/3:54.69; Coe 1:43.97/3:58.35 mile; Cram 1:44.45/3:33.66/3:49.90 Ovett>Coe at 1500/mile, Coe>Ovett at 800m (n/t but beats Ovett's lifetime pr) Coe wins 800 over Cram, Cram>Ovett at 1500 and crushes the mile over Ovett and especially Coe
Age 22 Ovett 1:44.09 (lifetime pr)/3:35.59/3:52.8h; Coe 1:42.33 WR/3:32.1h/3:48.95WR; Cram 1:43.61/3:31.66/3:52.56 Coe>Ovett soundly; Coe>Cram>Ovett at 800, Cram>Coe at 1500; Coe>Cram at mile soundly
Age 23 Ovett 1:44.91/3:32.11/3:49.57; Coe 1:45.07/3:32.19; Cram 1:47.27/3:49.65 Ovett>Coe>Cram soundly at 800m, Ovett>Coe at 1500 narrowly; Ovett>Cram>Coe (nt) at mile
Age 24 Ovett 1:45.40/3:31.36/3:48.8h; Coe 1:41.73 WR, 3:31.95/3:47.33 WR; Cram 1:42.88 (over Cruz)/3:29.67 WR/3:46.32 WR Coe>Ovett soundly, except 1500; Coe wins 800/1k over Cram, who beats Ovett soundly; Cram>Coe>Ovett at mile; Cram>Ovett>Coe at 1500
Age 25 Ovett 1:46.40/3:31.57/3:48.40 WR; Coe 1:44.48/3:39.1h; Cram 1:43.19/3:30.15/3:48.31; Cram>Coe>Ovett at 800; Cram>Ovett>Coe at 1500/mile soundly
Age 26 Ovett 1:46.08/3:38.48; Coe 1:43.80/3:35.17/3:52.93; Cram 1:45.31/3:31.43/3:50.08 Coe>Cram>Ovett at 800; Cram>Coe>Ovett soundly at 1500 and mile
Age 27 Ovett 1:45.25/3:30.77 WR/3:50.49; Coe 1:43.64/3:32.39/3:54.6h; Cram 1:43.42/ 3:30.95/3:48.85 Cram>Coe>Ovett at 800m, Ovett>Cram>Coe at 1500m; Cram>Ovett>Coe at mile (Coe at 27 came back from illness to win Olympic silver and gold)
Age 28 Ovett 1:44.81/3:34.50; Coe 1:43.07/3:32.13/3:49.22; Cram 1:46.37/3:35.41/3:51.58 Coe>Ovett>Cram soundly
Age 29 Ovett 3:37.74/3:55.01; Coe 1:44.10/3:29.77 (pr); Cram 3:33.03/3:53.99 Coe>Cram>Ovett soundly
Age 30 Ovett 3:33.78/3:52.99; Coe 1:46.18; Cram 3:34.18/3:52.11 Ovett beats Coe, though no overlap in performances; Ovett beats Cram at 1500, Cram beats Ovett at mile
Age 31 Ovett 3:36.43/3:57.03; Coe 1:43.93/3:35.72; Cram n/t Coe>Ovett
Age 32 Ovett 3:36.90/3:58.71; Coe 1:43.38/3:34.05; Cram 3:35.63/3:52.17 Coe>Cram>Ovett
Age 33 Ovett 1:48.18/3:37.40/3:59.68; 1:47.24 Coe>Ovett at 800m, Ovett>Coe at 1500m/mile (n/t for Coe)

4x800m world record 1982 - should have been quicker but Peter Elliot had an off day

There was a lot of "dodging" back then. I remember one meet where Coe and Ovett were there and one ran the mile the other the 1500.

There was a lot more publicity and it didn't benefit either of them to lose which kind of made for the extra excitement of the Olympics.

I think in the end, this dodging helped to bring down the popularity of the sport.

Peter Elliot 1.49.14

Garry Cook 1.46.20

Steve Cram 1.44.54

Seb Coe 1.44.01

7.03.89

Actually, Coe beat Cruz (81 World Cup) and Bile. He never raced Aouita.

The relays were the same distance - the on the short-leg of the Southern 12 stage road relay at Wimbledon Common (alternating short and long stages, using one loop that was 3 miles 553 yards, and one that was 5 miles 334 yards).

I was actually the only runner in the change over zone with Coe one year. The race isn't run on that course any more (last time was 92), but Ovett has the 2nd and 6th short course time (1980 and 1988) and Coe has the joint 8th and 12th fastest times (1984 and 1986).

Ovett also has the joint 5th and 14th fastest long stages (1979 and 1985).