Oh, look at this! A real answer! Thank you very much.
Oh, look at this! A real answer! Thank you very much.
Serious RR Guy wrote:
Oh, look at this! A real answer! Thank you very much.
You are welcome. Be careful when you are running these sprint workouts. If you feel anything starting to tweak or strain, stop the workout immediately. When I say full rest on the sprint intervals, you should be taking 5-10 minutes break so that lactic acid doesn't build up and effect your running form.
You should throw in a time trial at the beginning and end of each cycle to gauge your progress.
Thanks. I have been doing sets of 30 second hill sprints and they never bothered me. I was taking 3 minute rest.
I'm really glad you brought up this approach because I had been wondering if starting over at short distance was an option at my age. I feel like there's a lot of crap in my legs that I need to burn off.
From what I see all the good distance people only move up once they peak in the shorter distances. Not that I'm in their ballpark, but the approach does make sense.
I ordered the NB MR800 last night and should have them by Friday. Since I'm not planning on competing in these distances they seemed like ok starter spikes.
I'll either start a new thread to document all this or just keep adding to this one.
Again, thanks for your time!
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Body parts are nice wrote:
Repeat this cycle:
20min tempo/30 min easy day/30 min easy day
Take a day or two off within every two week period
Do at least 5 fast 50m strides after every run
Crap
That's not crap. That will give him a good enough base to run a good time. I used that program for a base period and after a month of 5k work, I ran 14:45. It's a simple and flexible plan.
You could have run a lot faster if properly trained
What about long runs, intervals, hills? Never mind though at least you got the strides in!
I have been using the Magill 5k Puzzle and it is pretty close to this. It has hill repeats though, like The Best Plan mentions.
I've really hit a crappy place with this 5k approach. I feel like crap on most of my runs and my times are inconsistent. Fast and easy one day. Slow and hard another. It's depressing. I've been able to build endurance for the longer runs, but my speed is suffering. I don't like that trade off.
I appreciate your input, I just think that I really need to focus on building up my strength to be able to handle 5k training successfully.
If you have any input on the 400m, 800m, and 1 mile base approach I'd love to hear it.
Serious RR Guy wrote:
Thanks. I have been doing sets of 30 second hill sprints and they never bothered me. I was taking 3 minute rest.
I'm really glad you brought up this approach because I had been wondering if starting over at short distance was an option at my age. I feel like there's a lot of crap in my legs that I need to burn off.
From what I see all the good distance people only move up once they peak in the shorter distances. Not that I'm in their ballpark, but the approach does make sense.
I ordered the NB MR800 last night and should have them by Friday. Since I'm not planning on competing in these distances they seemed like ok starter spikes.
I'll either start a new thread to document all this or just keep adding to this one.
Again, thanks for your time!
Those spikes look good. Everyone responds to training differently. This may or may not work for you, but here is an excerpt from a Pete Magill article (5K Master's Champ)you might be interested in:
"The Value of Speed Training
“[In] groups of equally trained distance runners,” writes exercise physiologist Tim Noakes in Lore of Running, “I suspect that the best runners at any longer distance are those who are fastest over distances from 100 to 800 [meters] and whose brains and muscles are also highly fatigue resistant.”
In other words, all other things being equal among distance runners, the fastest sprinter in the group wins the race. It’s not enough for masters distance runners to fill their training logs with volume, tempo, race-pace intervals, and the occasional session of post-run strides. If we don’t use our fast twitch fiber (Type IIa and IIx), we lose it.
And fast-twitch fiber isn’t just about sprint speed. It’s a primary component (along with hip and knee range of motion) of stride length. Studies over the past 20 years have all come to the same conclusion: As we age, our stride frequency remains the same, but our stride length decreases – an average of 40% by the time we reach our 70s and 80s. Slowing the decrease in stride length through speed training simultaneously slows the decline in our distance race performance. Otherwise, we’d need almost twice the stride frequency to maintain our mile pace from age 40 to age 80.
The good news is that we can reverse much of the damage. A 2009 study found that sprint training led to “significant gains in maximal and explosive strength and improvements in force production during running.” With proper training, we can rebuild our stride, recapture our speed, and maintain both as we age. "
Going from mid-20's to anything under 18 will take at least 2 years, and, probably a little more, if you get on a solid program. Without more information it's hard to say how quickly and how much work you need.
How old are you?
How tall?
How much do you weigh?
How long have you been running?
What does a typical week/month look like?
What are you other PR's?
If you are interested I am getting back into coaching online and have had very good success with folks like yourself. I charge about $25 a month and will be glad to help you develop a program that suits your needs. If anyone tells you going from 24 to 18 can be done in 6 months they're lying unless you are leaving out a lot of information here...like you had mono for two years but used to be a 200m track stud or something off the wall like that. Big improvements take time, but, are certainly doable.
Follow this; you need to improve mechanically/neuromuscularly if you are running 24min 5k off of 40 mi/wk. It is a common part of programs early on in their progression
...maybe mix in a fartlek or two as well (e.g. warm up then, 10 x (30s @5k effort, 30s @ easy)
Thanks.
I do have that sort of variation, but the focus is on medium duration (60-80 minutes) runs. And that seems to be what is killing me. I can go longer easier, but I'm slowing down. Take a look at Magill's 5k Puzzle article. You'll see what it is made up of.
The Best Plan's input has a focus on speed that I am craving, as well as a long-term goal of increasing distance.
No offense, the other ideas seem to reenforce the traditional plans that I am apparently not ready for. I've been taking that approach for awhile now and see no long-term improvement at all. I think I'm running about the same as I was 12 months ago.
I know that is on me. I run alone almost all the time and life gets in the way of my running schedule.
So, do you want to run a faster 5k or mile? It seems you aren't quite sure.
will wrote:
How old are you? 36
How tall? 5'9"
How much do you weigh? ~150
How long have you been running? Off and on since 23. Have been focused on it for the last 12 months.
What does a typical week/month look like? Basically the Magill 5k Puzzle with some modifications based on how I feel that day and life requirements. Usually 25-36 miles/week.
What are you other PR's? 2:04:45 1/2thon off 2 months training.
Serious RR Guy wrote:
17:XX on whatever miles/week is my goal and I'm looking for some help. I don't care how many miles.
I'm currently at 24:XX running ~40 m/week and I want to get into seriously good shape. I know I can do more, but the cookie cutter crap online isn't working and I don't have a coach.
Man, I hate to be the one to have to tell you, but no amount of training, even if perfectly suited for you is going to guarantee a 17:something 5k or even 20:something for that matter.
I've been witness to a very good high school CC program this fall...they start "voluntary" workouts in MAY and then bust it all summer, up to 60 MPW for the seniors and some of the better guys in the lower grades. There are guys there who have been running like that for 4 years and only run 21:something.
Simply put, in addition to training and eating right and all that, you have to have some TALENT. Sometimes it takes a while to find the talent, and maybe you do have the talent to get to 17:something, but no amount of running will guarantee you'll get there or even close to there.
Do some better training and race a bit and see. That's all you can do brother.
Serious RR Guy wrote:
will wrote:How old are you? 36
How tall? 5'9"
How much do you weigh? ~150
How long have you been running? Off and on since 23. Have been focused on it for the last 12 months.
What does a typical week/month look like? Basically the Magill 5k Puzzle with some modifications based on how I feel that day and life requirements. Usually 25-36 miles/week.
What are you other PR's? 2:04:45 1/2thon off 2 months training.
Thanks for the answers.
Some basics:
1) hills are the best replacement for short track speedwork you can find. It helps you when you actually have to race on hills and eliminates the need to add extra stress from running faster than you need to on the track. For longer distance, you want to focus on being able to stay aerobic. One thing I suggest to folks here is to take a reasonably short hill, something you can run in about 1 minute, and do repeats on it at about 5k race pace. The hard part is not the hill work, but, the recovery. When you start doing these workouts, you run the recover slowly enough that you reach about 75% heart rate max by the time you reach the bottom. As you get fitter, the jog back down speeds up and the uphill speed stays the same (or slightly increases). This teaches you how to recover at faster paces over time and as you get fitter. All in all, a mile's worth should be enough to start with.
2) longer intervals with short recoveries. To me, there is something magical about 6-9 minute intervals with short jog rests. I often used to do 2000m reps with 300m jogs. In your case, I would say 3 x 1 mile at about 8k pace (8:15) with 200m jogs in 2 minutes would be a great workout to stretch your aerobic strength.
3) longer aerobic/tempo runs. Many people are way underdeveloped aerobically and never trully build up their capacity for handling comfortably hard aerobic work. This is basically marathon pace effort. In your case, I would recommend 4 miles at about 8:45-9:00 pace would be perfect. This can be alternated with 2 x 2 miles at the same pace with a 3 minute break between runs.
The total distance of these workouts would be about 9.5-10 miles, allowing you plenty of opportunity to get in the remaining easy miles for the week however you like. There are countless variations you can throw into the mix here, but, I have seen repeating the same workouts a few times before moving onto something different really helps you see progress. I am also a huge fan of heart rate monitors. They make it very obvious where you are at in terms of effort (most of the time).
Flagpole wrote:
Man, I hate to be the one to have to tell you, but no amount of training, even if perfectly suited for you is going to guarantee a 17:something 5k or even 20:something for that matter.
I went from 19 minutes for 2 miles to low 15's for 5k. Claiming people can't make that kind of a leap is unfounded and pessimistic. Qualifying it even further is just pouring cold water on someone's fire. What happened to the part about this being a place where people could pursue their dreams.
will wrote:
So, do you want to run a faster 5k or mile? It seems you aren't quite sure.
I want to run as fast as I can in every distance I can. I know it's a lot to ask, and there's that "talent" thing, but I don't care. I'm willing to start at the bottom and work my way up.
I've always been active and very dedicated (obsessive?). Running gives me a lot that other sports haven't been able to.
For background, I skateboarded for years and years and basically ignored everything but education, work, and women. Eventually I started to crave definite answers that skating could not give me.
Running is not that way. Running has a real answer to what I am asking. "How good am I?"
Right now the answer is, "Not too good, buddy." And I'm ok with that because I know I've been worse than I am and can get better (barring a serious injury).
will wrote:
Flagpole wrote:Man, I hate to be the one to have to tell you, but no amount of training, even if perfectly suited for you is going to guarantee a 17:something 5k or even 20:something for that matter.
I went from 19 minutes for 2 miles to low 15's for 5k. Claiming people can't make that kind of a leap is unfounded and pessimistic. Qualifying it even further is just pouring cold water on someone's fire. What happened to the part about this being a place where people could pursue their dreams.
[sigh] -- Read it again brother...I didn't tell him that he COULDN'T...I told him that nothing will GUARANTEE that he can. He very well might be able to, and I never said he couldn't nor even implied it.
where do you live?
Changes happen, but the rate of improvement slow down rapidly. I ran an all out 1hr 5min 10k in 2009 and ran sub 40 in 2011.
It's a huge improvement, but it's improving from mediocre to okay for us hobbyjoggists.
Don't focus on a crazy goal. I too would want to run 17:XX, but first I tried to run 21' and then to break 20' (nice round goal).
It worked, so maybe now I'll think about 19'. If you set too high and aggressive expectations you set yourself up for failure and disappointment. Enjoy running, practice but leave some time for time. It's your body developing, no matter how bad you want it.
McGill 5k puzzle surely is one way to go. But there's no ONE way. Keep running and enjoy improving. No one here can say if or when you'll break 17. Don't copy anyone either. Try to find out what works for you. It can be speed, mileage, frequency, long runs, slow runs, hard runs. No one knows or we'll all run sub 15.
Cheers.
Your equation doesn't work.
if X=1, then you'd run 17:11 off 11 miles a week, and if X=2, you'd double your mileage yet run slower.
I think you need to give this some more thought
Serious RR Guy wrote:
will wrote:So, do you want to run a faster 5k or mile? It seems you aren't quite sure.
I want to run as fast as I can in every distance I can. I know it's a lot to ask, and there's that "talent" thing, but I don't care. I'm willing to start at the bottom and work my way up.
I've always been active and very dedicated (obsessive?). Running gives me a lot that other sports haven't been able to.
For background, I skateboarded for years and years and basically ignored everything but education, work, and women. Eventually I started to crave definite answers that skating could not give me.
Running is not that way. Running has a real answer to what I am asking. "How good am I?"
Right now the answer is, "Not too good, buddy." And I'm ok with that because I know I've been worse than I am and can get better (barring a serious injury).
As I tell anyone who is where you're at. Figuring out how good you are, if you want to do it right, can take years. I never pretend it's anything other than hard work and dedication, but, you sound like you've got the basic ingredients to give it a go. For you, I would ask: what are your goals? Well, you threw out what I would call a 5k long term goal. Now, to help build a practical approach, chop it up into smaller goals and start taking steps towards them. So, for hypothetical conversation, say it will take you 4 years to break 18 (I don't think it really would but we'll just use that). Break those 4 years into 2 seasons. That gives you 8 steps between here and there. Realistically speaking, those 8 steps will change over time, but, essentially, you're just looking for something to hang your hat on. Season 1 would give you a good, basic goal of about 23 minutes for 5k. Not so far out there you look at it and immediately throw your hands in the air and walk away, but, not so easy you scoff at it an blow it off.
Next, subdivide the next 6 months into 4 parts. (This is pretty much how Daniels advocates it, although there are more complicated ways to apply his program which he clearly outlines in his books.)
Part 1: basic training: easy miles/strides
Part 2: intro to stress: fartleks, hills and tempo
Part 3: refining training
Part 4: race and peak
May sound very cookie cutter but it doesn't have to be in actual application. Just having a general framework on the calendar gives you small, realizable goals. So, to get your current PR down, plan on trying to drop 20 seconds per phase. That would get you under 23. Season 1, done. PR's faster: check. Season 2: shoot for 21:xx-22:15. Repeat the steps listed above. I'm just trying to give you a basic thought process for building a big picture. It's something I think almost anyone who's been doing this a while will suggest. Everyone's different and I'm not trying to squelch that, just point out, running and improving is different from skating and development can benefit from being organized. As you get into it further you will find that running can be a bit like skating in the sense that good training has a certain flow and rhythm to it, even though it can be thought of in very logical terms.
Flagpole wrote:
[sigh] -- Read it again brother...I didn't tell him that he COULDN'T...I told him that nothing will GUARANTEE that he can. He very well might be able to, and I never said he couldn't nor even implied it.
That's cool. I understand that effort doesn't guarantee success in any realm. I just know that I can be better than I currently am. Getting the basics and speed down in the shorter distances seems like a smart place to start. And it's something that didn't seem like a good approach until someone actually said it to me.