Is college no longer a worthwhile investment?

I went to college and left way smarter than I entered. Worth it? Probably. Doesn't mean you can't be intelligent without a degree. I met plenty of morons in college.

I am having trouble seeing grad school worth the money. Most of the specialized areas in my field at the graduate level make the same/less salary I would make with my undergrad. So why would I induce another 100K in debt for a job that is low-paying and super-competitive.

I was lucky to pay off a good chunk of my college myself with about 15k in loans left, but I have friends with 80-120k in debt. Some of these same kids are going back to grad school for either a JD or a masters in their field of studies. I can't even grasp the idea taking +200k in debt and trying to surviving sufficiently off 30k to 40k with a burdensome monthly loan payment over 1000 a month.

I might be tapping out on "the dream", but I rather live comfortably and enjoy my life outside of work and not have nightmares about paying back the massive loans hovering over my head, living with my parents until 33.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have joined the military or done ROTC instead. Unfortunate higher education in the US has turned into a business.

Yeah, the cost of a university education IS becoming prohibitively expensive, and something to consider. I went to the University of Texas and at the time I attended ('79-83) I remember paying about $400-500 per semester for tuition AND books. My rent was $480/month and I had a roommate. I worked part-time to pay those expenses - don't think you could do that today. I graduated with $400 in student loans. Little different today that's for sure.

I think the key is to not go to a private (or out of state) school if you have to take on huge debt.

I went to Ohio State because I was born and raised there. It was possible to go to school full time and work partime and to graduate with minimal to no expenses. Even now it is about $2000 per semester. Not bank breaking by any means.

Based on your second post, it appears you've tried some different paths with moderate success, meaning you're a few semesters or even a couple of years in. Too much invested already to quit. By the time you drop out, find a job paying sufficently to provide financial independence, you would've graduated had you stayed in school. If that is not the case, and you're only a semester or two in, and you've had Bs in courses such as chem, physics, math (as you put it, hard courses), you haven't been in long enough to rule out trying some different ways to developing better study habits (not longer, better) to get those Bs to As. Stay in school.

I'm sure you are joking, but if not, get a job as a custodian there.

Yeah quitting college is definitely good on the resume....

Umm, the group you are saying that "that many of these degreed people with jobs probably graduated many years ago and are already established in their careers?"

Well, just like now, back then not everyone went to college, there are the same demographics of people who didn't go to college twenty years ago that are part of that high unemployment. You sentence does not have logic behind it. Sorry. Algebra helps with logic, so does Law School.

Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending college. One can become either more or less knowledgable depending on what kind of information he assimilates while in college. Some people emerge from college with valuable skills in science, engineering and business; tragically, many others graduate having gained no marketable skills and having been brainwashed by marxism. The latter group actually gained negative net knowledge because what they think they learned is wrong.

Rational Economist wrote:

Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending college. One can become either more or less knowledgable depending on what kind of information he assimilates while in college.

Using that line of thinking, you could say "Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending K-12", which is obviously not true.

More knowledgeable=smarter

Don't be a smartass.

Rational Economist wrote:

Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending college. One can become either more or less knowledgable depending on what kind of information he assimilates while in college. Some people emerge from college with valuable skills in science, engineering and business; tragically, many others graduate having gained no marketable skills and having been brainwashed by marxism. The latter group actually gained negative net knowledge because what they think they learned is wrong.

I actually agree with this.

And by reading many of your posts I can tell you are educated but not intelligent.

Back at ya wrote:

Rational Economist wrote:

Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending college. One can become either more or less knowledgable depending on what kind of information he assimilates while in college. Some people emerge from college with valuable skills in science, engineering and business; tragically, many others graduate having gained no marketable skills and having been brainwashed by marxism. The latter group actually gained negative net knowledge because what they think they learned is wrong.

I actually agree with this.

And by reading many of your posts I can tell you are educated but not intelligent.

I'm pretty sure that Rational Economist is a troll. Nobody could possibly be that stupid. He isn't even a good troll like UncleB, as his posts are lacking in any kind of subtlety.

rolling my eyes wrote:

He isn't even a good troll like UncleB, as his posts are lacking in any kind of subtlety.

Wait, what???!!!

That implies that UncleB's posts have subtlety attached to them?

General Zaroff wrote:

Rational Economist wrote:

Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending college. One can become either more or less knowledgable depending on what kind of information he assimilates while in college.

Using that line of thinking, you could say "Intelligence is genetic, so one does not become smarter by attending K-12", which is obviously not true.

More knowledgeable=smarter

Don't be a smartass.

Knowledge is not equivalent to intelligence. Intelligence has a physiological basis that cannot be altered significantly (except for the worse by brain damage), while knowledge is stored data. Intelligence is analogous to computer hardware, such as the computing power of a CPU, while knowledge is analogous to the software installed on a computer. No software upgrade will make a computer with a 100 MHz processor capable of running as fast as a computer with a 2.5 GHz processor, and no amount nor type of education will make a person with a low IQ capable of competing intellectually with a high-IQ individual. You can upgrade your computer hardware, but you can't upgrade your brain physiology. It's genetic, and what you are born with is what you must live and die with. Schooling does not increase it. I'm aware that extremely abnormal conditions during early childhood may arrest normal intellectual development, just as malnutrition can stunt a child's growth, but it does not follow that K-12 schooling increases intelligence beyond what what occur otherwise. Our species was intelligent for hundreds of thousands of years before K-12 existed.

rolling my eyes wrote:

He isn't even a good troll like UncleB, as his posts are lacking in any kind of subtlety.

I make no effort to pander to the sensibilities of progressives. You guys are not only wrong about everything, but are so irrational and disoriented in general that no quantity nor quality of facts or logic could ever reach you. You have chosen your fate, and will get what you deserve when the economy of this country collapses utterly. The only reason I bother arguing is so that people who are not intellectually hopeless will read the exchanges and see that there is an alternative to the flamboyant irrationalism of the left.

Rational Economist wrote:

Knowledge is not equivalent to intelligence. Intelligence has a physiological basis that cannot be altered significantly (except for the worse by brain damage), while knowledge is stored data.

This actually isn't true, although I understand why you think that since it is does seem rational and I guess it all depends on how you define intelligence. Scientists generally recognize that 50% of intelligence is determined by environmental factors. So schooling does in fact increase you're ability to think analytically, it doesn't just increase the amount of stuff you know. That's why teachers don't just make you memorize textbooks, the problem solving aspect is much more important and that is what increases intelligence. Of course there are many geniuses who were born that way and didn't need any schooling, but there are other genetic factors that determine learning ability that are more significant to those cases. Nevertheless, people who don't go to school statistically have drastically lower IQs.

Rational Economist wrote:

I make no effort to pander to the sensibilities of progressives. You guys are not only wrong about everything, but are so irrational and disoriented in general that no quantity nor quality of facts or logic could ever reach you.

I don't know why you always have to be a dismissive douche. You realize that by doing that it makes you look really dumb because the assumption is that you have no response; no logical retort.

TCB wrote:

I don't know why you always have to be a dismissive douche. You realize that by doing that it makes you look really dumb because the assumption is that you have no response; no logical retort.

I don't say that to all progressives, just the foaming-at-the mouth aggressive and malicious ones.

Getting a college education is still desirable. Going $100,000 or more in debt for an undergraduate degree though is NOT necessary. Tons of ways to go to college on the cheap...Community College first, scholarships, state colleges, work study jobs, move to California for a year first and then go in state, take 5 or 6 years to graduate while working part-time. I went to a VERY expensive university and graduated with just $7,500 in debt. I was glad to get it gone, but it was very manageable and definitely worth it.Don't discount the VALUE of a college degree though. Even if philosophically you feel the degree is worthless, the hiring managers still don't feel that way, and educated people (hiring managers) want to surround themselves with other educated people...for MANY reasons; they feel comfortable with same class of people, makes their job seem more important, etc.You're still better off with a college degree, and NOW while the job market isn't humming along is the PERFECT time to be a student. The job market will be better when you graduate...guaranteed.