New Mexico Invite results

Kipruto is a juco transfer to UNM. Not sure why he's running unattached. Also never heard of Dine junior college or knowledge that the the four corners area would be recruiting east africans.

holdshoot wrote:

Nicholas Kipruto ran 23:50 at altitude?!?!? holy crap is this guy on UNM's team? That's ridiculous

the course at New Mexico is definitely short (maybe 200 meters) but Kiprutos time is the fastest ever run on that course so that is saying something. I find it amusing that people think a college coach should give scholarships to slow American kids instead of fielding the best program possible.

Plus, New Mexico as a state has the easiest financial aid program in the country. Any high school graduate with a 2.5 gets a big scholarship. Hell, all you have to do is breath and you can get a 2.5 in high school. With the cost of a full year of attendance maybe around $13,000 at UNM, and the lottery scholarship picking up most of that, kids don't need scholarships. It has to be one of the best deals in the country.

I just finished researching the New Mexico lottery scholarship program. The poster has fabricated that every NM high school grad who can maintain a 2.5 GPA will get NM Lotter scholarship money to cover his/her tuition, etc. Fact is, very few get scholarships this way.

No, I think he is correct:

http://fin.hed.state.nm.us/content.asp?CustComKey=194781&CategoryKey=194782&pn=Page&DomName=fin.hed.state.nm.us

It says that these students have established eligibility. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who is eligible will get one of these "tuition only" scholarships. With the low tuition in New Mexico, the major cost of college is the living costs (dorms, etc) and this would be covered by athletic scholarships. So, all these older English athletes are getting a better deal than some kid relying on the lottery scholarship. My point from the start is that an 18 year old New Mexico freshman may have run much better times that what a 24 year old import ran when he was an 18 eyar old in England. The scholarships are going to the English pros, while the 18 year olds have to figure out how to get through college (most likely with part-time jobs), and may never have the opportunity to achieve running potential.

If tuition averages $3,000 a year, and with approximately 50,000 kids graduating every year in New Mexico, the State has a potential liability of $150,000,000 ($150 million)every year for each high school graduating class. So, each year the potential liability is $600 million (based on 4 classes in college at a time). Gambling must be pretty profitable in NM.

You just don't get it, and MY point is that if this hypothetical 18 year old were fast enough, he would get an athletic scholarship.

and here's what you don't get:

***CASE IN POINT***** lets just say that the coach DOESN'T use his scholarships on "older english guys.." so try to think about this outside your closed mind, that hypothetically there are NO ENGLISH RECRUITS, so now there are scholarships available, a Div I coach still WOULD NOT waste his money on a slow american kid!!!!

So basically the point either way that you don't get, is that the foreigners are not stealing scholarships away from "deserving americans" because the american runners who actually are fast enough to deserve an athletic scholarship will definitely get one. So whats left after the 10% or less of american runners that deserve division I scholarships, most schools will not have gotten the recruits they wanted because maybe they went to other colleges or whatever.. SO there is scholarship money left over and whether they recruit foreigners or not, they will surely NOT waste their scholarship money on slow americans like yourself sandy..

If you have an example of a coach from a solid running program handing out charity scholarships to "americans" then feel free to share them sandy, because the reality is that the only runners that will get good scholarships to solid running programs are ones that are fast enough to warrant spending money on, there is no charity on Division I sports idiot.

It never surprises me when people faced with the truth, regress to name-calling and the like.

That aside, "i'vegotit!" still doesn't get it--or doesn't want to get it. 95% of American colleges are ok with taking young high school graduates with decent division 1 potential and giving them an opportunity to develop. Sure, only a portion of them develop to their potential, but that's how we get gems like Solinsky, Rupp, Wheating, Tegenkamp, and so many others now coming onto the international scene. On the other hand, 5% of the D-1 universities choose the lazy way to be "successful" by bringing in mature pro athletes from around the world. Meanwhile, there are a few dozen marginal high school kids from the US who miss out on a D-1 scholarship because of a few lazy coaches who either can't or won't do the work needed to recruit, and more importantly, coach these kids to their potential. So go ahead NM (and the rest of the 5%) gloat in your pro imports who will take spots away from American kids and even take "national" titles from 18-22 year old Americans.

Typically UK students start university at 18 do a three year undergraduate degree graduating at 21. If they are particularly good atheletes they may consider doing grad school in the US. Typically,(due to the informal nature of collegiate athletics in the UK) they will have at least 2 years eligibility and so they run as a junior at 21-22 and a senior at 22-23 on two years of scholarship.

Typically US students who are particularly good athletes start university at 18 with 4 years eligibility and a redshirt year so they typically run as a junior at 21-22 and a senior at 22-23 on upto five years of scholarship.

The competition is not as unfair as you imply. There are of course exceptions - some of the UK athletes start as true freshmen some US athletes are older, at BYU for example.

Incidentally, there are many US students on scholarships in the UK just not athletic scholarships as the UK doesn't really do athletic scholarships even for UK students.

This debate is always brought up over and over again utep, byu, arkansas etc. etc. The fact of the matter is that universities in america are the world wide mecca for learning. Nearly all of them have very diverse populations with students from every corner of the globe. Why would you propose to make their CC teams a different make up than the student population. The coach at UNM is just working with what he's got and the bottom line is his job is to win not provide lesser runners with college running memories of mediocrity. UNM is not a big name school like oregon or stanford so it hard to recruit the big name american talent to come to a place like Albuquerque because no one has ever heard of it. These brits (and others) are just smart enough to realize that NM is a great place to train for long distance running with its high altitude, great trails and year round running climate. Most 18 year old HS studs aren't thinking on that level yet and make decisions based on what they know, who has always done well. In the end great college coaches are great not because they had some magic formula that made people run fast but because they got great runners to come run for them. If you don't believe me go ask John Mcdonnell about how he got his 42 NCAA championships.

Sandy:

While I understand your point to a degree you are looking at it from an idealistic standpoint, and coaches have to look at a realistic standpoint. UNM has just recruited four of the five best New Mexico high school guy distance runners for this years team. What else do you want the coach to do? But even if he got every good distance runner in the state he could not have a decent team on the national or conference level. Two factors stand in the way. First, the state of New Mexico is one of the worst in the country for producing high level talent. There just aren't enough quality athletes. Second, the University of New Mexico is not a well-respected academic institution, which means the top distance talent from around the country will not have the university on their radar. The coaches at UNM go far and wide in recruiting high school kids, but it isn't easy to convince talent to come to the state. So unless the coaches go "outside" they can not have a good program. Recently, I read an article in USA Today about a 26 year old football player from Northern Illinois that was in the Marines and came back to school and is the best defensive player in the conference. He gets a full scholarship to play. Do you consider this to be the same problem, that this guys is taking scholarships away from 18 year olds? Bottom line, the coaches at New Mexico are trying to be the best they can be, and for right now international athletes will help in that. Maybe sometime in the future when they get a national name, they will be able to focus solely on the American 18 year olds.

I understand your point and even agree with it. However I would like to point out that just 6 years ago UNM got 9th at NCAA's and had two all americans one of whom almost won nationals and every member of the roster graduated from a NM high school. Yes Shadrack was from Kenya but he did go to La Cueva and he was the only member of the team not born and raised in NM. Matt Gonzales the guy who almost won was born and raised in Santa Fe.

Some decent rebuttal has surfaced, and I can largely understand why NM would recruit a few foreign athletes to supplement the in-state and other American kids. But, when I look at this year's roster with 11 from England, with a few more from Russia and Kenya, I begin to be bothered by what is going on. In recent years, programs like Iona, Alabama and Oklahoma State have gone heavily to foreign runners with an eye to the US' national collegiate championship. This rubs me wrong, for some reason, and I doubt it is something I will ever like very much. I'd rather see the US' collegiate championship won by mostly American kids (I don't have a problem with a college having an occasional import giving the team a composition that pretty closely reflects the student body as a whole). I do accept your good points about NM though.

It was great when UNM got 9th, I remember that, problem was that 9th place happen only that once. People should recall Shadrack transferred to Oregon the following year. The fact he transferred brings home the point that has been stated earlier on this post. UNM doesn't have the reputation yet where top flight talent from the US considers their school. Go through the list of top talent in NM that went out of state. Fredd Mcgriff, Matt Tebo, Ben Johnson to name a few. All these Footlocker guys never even consider UNM. What about the track side of things where UNM lost out on Daniel Gorris and the best track athlete every out of NM in Curtis Beach. Now that they have been consistently good that last few years they are getting the best NM kids to stay. Allen Pittman, Kyle Pittman, Alex Herring (who had one of the top 1600m and mile times in the country and went to Albuquerque Academy, Academy students almost never stay at UNM). Those athletes would have gone else where had it not been for the foreign athletes that helped improve the program. Oh and responding to Sandy Rivialson... obviously your one of those people that only cares about cross country and not the entire sport of track and FIELD!!! First off Cross Country and track are consider the same team by the NCAA so they have to SHARE a small amount of scholarship (12.6 to be exact) so they don't have the luxuary to give developing kids scholarships if they wanna be good at the national level. UNM has over 45 people on their mens team and I looked at there roster well over 80 percent are athletes from the US. Matter of fact many of there top non distance athletes are from New Mexico. Finally going back to Cross since thats all you care about... UNM has recruited and signed The Montoya twins from Cibola High School (NM kids) Alex Harring (Alb Acd from NM) Kyle Pittman (los alamos from NM) and Micheal Assya (from montana) thats FIVE 18 year old kids the UNM coaches recruited to develop, that are on scholarship.. Look up Sean Stam, Alex Willis, Matt Everett and again your point is honestly point less. Since your not from NM please know what your talking about before you try to disrespect what UNM is doing.

I accidentally submitted before I finished. My point is when UNM can get talented US kids they try to sign them, i.e. the five freshman they signed. So Sandy Rivialson UNM signs talented athletes regardless where they are from but they wont give a 4:30 1600m or a 9:32 3200 guy a scholarship, but like every other program THAT'S ACTUALLY GOOD will let them walk on. Walk ons are a major part of any program in track and cross country because of how limited the scholarships are. UNM wont waste a scholarship on a person because they are from the US or from another country, you have to have good marks coming in.. Oh and sorry I was in baseball mode when I said Fredd Mcgriff I meant Ryan McNiff...

Hey that's alright, I was thinking "McGruff" and chuckling. You do make some excellent points, and I understand much better where UNM is coming from. I also understand your point about T&F vs XC. But, here's a question: don't you think that having a dozen foreign athletes on the XC squad is a bit over the top? Isn't this an really an attempt to import a championship team?

Finally!! another former unm runner gets my point!!

I'm not being mean or unpatriotic, all i'm saying is that coaches will not hand out scholarships to americans or brits or anyone who isn't fast enough to deserve one. No one is stopping the development of american youth, but if they aren't fast enough they won't get scholarships plain and simple.

sandy, you call coaches that recruit fast foreigners lazy, but have you ever met a coach that LIKES recruiting slow kids so they can develop them???!! Hell no!! All the coaches in the country would love to have the fastest american kids come to school would you call them lazy that they are bringing in kids that are already fast and not the slow kids they could develop?? Is oregon lazy because they bring in all the fast kids each year?

Its not about nationality, coaches are only going to spend money on runners that will make an impact on the team, like German Fernandez, solinsky, or rupp, but when all these guys are taken they look to fast foreigners.

and you mention solinsky, and by doing so you strengthen my point because he is american and he was fast enough to earn a scholarship, so people like him will definitely get athletic scholarships over any foreigner, but the bulk of slow undeserving runners (american or foreign) can develop all they want, but will have to do so without an athletic scholarship.

So to sum up how coaches give out scholarship money:

1.Scholarships are usually awarded to runners that are fast enough to make an immediate impact on the team (the solinskys, rupps, fernandez, or foreigners)

2. Sometimes decently fast runners that may take a year or two to make an impact in the conference or team will get something small like books and fees, or even only allowed a spot on the team.

3. Then finally this is where most american runners are at, they are allowed to try out for the team (some teams hold time trials or tryouts) or allowed to walkon.

4. these are the slow kids that will have to walk on at really small DI schools or smaller division schools, or will not be able to run anywhere.

This is usually how it works at the good running schools. Hopefully this finally makes you get my point that all the fast americans that deserve a scholarship will get them, and the slower americans will probably not get one regardless if foreigners are involved or not.

When your athletic director says he/she wants you to be a top 10 distance program and it is difficult to attract top level U.S. talent, then no having that many foreign athletes is not over the top.... The person that posted about realistic vs idealistic is absolutely correct, DI athletics become much more of a business and if you don't win as a coach you don't keep your job. Based on what I have been told by college coaches its much easier from a administrative stand point to recruit US kids. But if your a coach at a UNM, Utep, Portland, or any other school like that you must think about winning. Therefore its any coaches job to "import" a championship team, regardless where the talent comes from.

Another good point well taken. Calling the coach lazy was probably not the right term to use. So, the blame--if we are to blame--belongs on the AD's who make these unrealistic goals for the coaches. Where would we be if 50 AD's made this the required goal for their XC coach? We would probably end up with 100's of imports on our teams, taking 7 or 8 of the top spots at NCAA's and in the end, 45 of the coaches would be fired anyway as a result of not achieving top 10 because another 30 schools recruited even more import athletes.

People from England have every right americans do to get an education at an affordable cost. It's not like they are going to school in the united states and just regular students and getting everything paid for, they earned it by being really good runners. Scholarships aren't charity, they are awards given to those that meet the qualifications. What you are saying is something along the lines of "Don't give the academic scholarship to the asian kid who scored a 2400 on his SAT", give the SAME scholarship to the less qualified american who scored a 2200."