If your career playoff record is 9-9, can you be the greatest NFL QB of all time?

I thought Kurt Warner was good until he threw that INT at the goal line last year, basically giving Pittsburgh the SB.

The part where you don't mention leadership as the most important quality in a championship QB. Today's QB's can call their own plays - by checking out of bad ones. When have you ever seen Manning check to a run play? Yes, you're right, NEVER. And if he had done it on Sunday they would have won. Those old-time QBs that you don't respect understood the game well enough that they would have run and run and run until NO stopped it. Manning wanted to be the star, as does Favre. That's why they poor post-season records.

Comprende?

MarathonMind wrote:

I thought Kurt Warner was good until he threw that INT at the goal line last year, basically giving Pittsburgh the SB.

Very true. A very bad pass. Not so much bad decision making as just a really poor throw. He doesn't do that very often though, especially post-season.

How do you come up with Bart Starr being 15-1 post season? He lost his first playoff game, then went 9-0 for an overall record of 9-1.

Warner is not even in the same league as the other guys being mentioned here.

We can't leave Terry Bradshaw out of this conversation. He was 4-0 in the Super Bowl. 14-5 in the post-season. And a leader in every sense.

Big Orange Country wrote:

We can't leave Terry Bradshaw out of this conversation. He was 4-0 in the Super Bowl. 14-5 in the post-season. And a leader in every sense.

Agreed

The Burg wrote:

For a regular season game, I would take Manning. For a Super Bowl, I would take Big Ben without a doubt.

Are you serious? In two super bowls the guy has 1 TD pass and 3 INTs to go along with being out thrown by over 100 yards in both contests. That has to be one of the dumbest comments. Ever. Ben over Manning?

To Bum, who somehow has an agenda or something against Manning - the guy made a bad play call, a bad throw. The running game had been working for the first few quarters but was getting slowed down quite a bit. And on 3rd and 5 right there you go to a quick slant - that is their bread and butter. He just didn't have it. But that was one play and it was at a critical time because it was towards the end - but was it more important than Pierre Garcon's dropped 3rd down pass in the 2nd quarter that led to the Saints running off like 143 straight offensive plays with 3 Indy runs in the middle of it? Was it more important than Hank Baskett forgetting how to use his hands and fall on a football? More important than Caldwell calling for a 51 yard field goal by a guy who struggles from mid-30s instead of punting (with the lead) and pinning them deeeeeep into their own zone forcing them to try and run out of it with one of their worst running games in a long time? Or how about the Indy special teams getting kidnapped and replaceed with whoever it was on the field - running a ball from 5 yards deep in the end zone out to the 11 and just pulling the rug out from under yor offense?

Look, Peyton did make that huge mistake - but he certainly didn't lose that game for the Colts. The Colts team made so many mistakes in that game that led to lost points here and points for the Saints there. The Saints certainly capitalized on every opportunity they got (except 4th and goal - they still got a field goal out of it) and they thoroughly deserved the W.

Peyton isn't the greatest by any stretch. He is certainly one of them. Brady was given an amazing team to be the face o and did admirably at maintaining that team and making some great throws and drives along the way. When is the last time the Colts had a defense that was feared? He is definitely in the conversation as one of the greatest of all time. He still has plenty of years to prove to everybody he is a multi-time winner - is he yet? Nope. But I would bet that he will be some day.

I don't have anything against Manning. At all. He's among the best in the game today. But he's not the greatest QB ever, not even close. I also would take Ben or Warner with the SB on the line. PM is essentially Bret Favre. Great QB who tries to do it all in big games. I don't blame the loss on Manning - teams lose games - but he made a ghastly error as the leader of the team when it counted. And it's not the first time.

ehhhh wrote:

Brady was given an amazing team to be the face o and did admirably at maintaining that team and making some great throws and drives along the way.

Why does everyone act like Brady was some chump who just managed his team to victory? The guy put up the single best season from a quarterback EVER! He has led plenty of critical drives in key playoff games and Super Bowls. The dude has great players around him but every team that makes the playoffs does. If he hadn't gotten injured last year who knows what the story would be today? And to come back from such a devastating injury and perform the way he did this year? Not bad, not bad at all.

And I'm not a Patriots fan either, I actually don't like them that much. But Brady is a damn good QB.

Bottom line is that with his team losing with about 2 mins to go Ben marched his team down the field threw the winning TD and won the SB. Manning was in roughly the same situation on Sunday and threw an interception.

Regarding Brady - I didn't mean to paint the picture that he is some chump. But to say he is better than Manning because his team has won Super Bowls is, at least in my mind, not right. You have to look at what was done on the field. And when we look at what was done on the field, I'm pretty sure Matt Cassel managed that record breaking offense to 11-5. If a player is that important to his team - and that GREAT of a player - they do not replace him and go 11-5. I know it is a drop from 16-0, but come on. Look at the Steelers without Polamalu - they don't make the playoffs. To me that is an MVP, a truly great player for his team.

On that same note, lets look at when Ben got hurt and Dennis Dixon almost leads them to a win in a game with massive playoff implications in Baltimore. I understand the Super Bowl victory is so important to a resume, and clutch performances are huge on the resume. Peyton led 7 4th quarter comebacks this season. That is a pretty damn efficient 2 minute drill. Yes, he came up short at that critical moment, and I know a lot of people who say one moment defines a career and all that BS. A career is a career and watching many QBs play, Manning shows a game knowledge and ability that I haven't seen from anybody else. Yes, he made a critical mistake and has a team record of 9-9 in the playoffs. I'd still take him over Brady, Ben, Warner, Favre, Rodgers, any of the guys today. He is in the conversation with the rgeats as one of the best QBs ever - you could argue not one of the most clutch, but the conversation of best QBs, best at his job, he is hands down in that conversation with plenty of others already named in this thread. You can't name on guy the greatest, at least not that has been seen.

Also, that question - who would you take as your QB and everybody then qualifies it "for the super bowl" or "for a regular season game" or whatever - The best QB will be the one who is chosen as the QB to lead the franchise, through the whole thing. You don't pick and choose when you use your QB.

Have you noticed Jim Kelly is not in the discussion about the greatest QB? If he won those four super bowls he lost, I'm sure he would be somewhere in the conversation. Of course winning when it counts, has a lot to do with whether or not a QB can be considered the greatest. At this point, Manning is not on the same level as Montana, Bradshaw and others. He chokes in the clutch. As a earlier poster stated, I would much rather have Big Ben in the SB.

In my own view of who is the greatest QB out there, I like to think of it in terms of "who can do the most with the least"...in other words, if you have average receivers, a crappy offensive line and an average running back, who could still win a lot of games on a regular basis?

When looking at it from this perspective, it's impossible not to rank Elway near the very top of the list. All you had to do was watch the Broncos in the mid to late 80's and you would understand this. If you put even an above average qb on that team, like say a Troy Aikman, there is no way that team wins more than 4 games in a typical season. The Broncos of the 90's when Elway won two Superbowls was a totally different story. That team was a powerhouse. But the 3 Superbowls before that were all Elway.

The same goes for Marino. Even in years with a subpar offensive line, he was able to negate this weakness with his quick release and bullseye accuracy. Of course the big knock on him is not winning the big one.

I also truly believe Montana could make just about any team in the NFL a winner. Even though he played with a lot of talent with the 49ers, it was amazing to see what he could do on the lesser KC Chiefs. He made them respectable. Put him on the Detroit Lions and they win at least 9 games.

While Manning is a great QB with great stats, I don't put him in the super elite category of Elway, Montana, Marino (and most likely Brady when all is said and done).

I understand your reasoning, but how does that final statement follow any of your reasoning? Brady has had above par teams for most of his career, especially the defensive side of things. His offensive line has been very good, running game has had its ups and downs, but always with a capable back and putting up solid numbers. His early days the receiving group was a bit lacking in my opinion but as of late he has been surrounded with big time play makers in Welker and now Moss, two of the very very best at their respective positions and a very good target at TE in ben Watson.

Look at Manning and the guys he has been surrounded by mimic that a bit except the Colts have never had a very good run game - they were the worst in the league this year! I will say Addai is a capable back, but extremely inconsistent, and Edgerrin James was a quality back, but was never great. His receiving group before this year has been very very good, but was that in part to him? Harrison and Wayne have been developed through him and extremely talented. Dallas Clark is a very good TE. But look at the Colts defense throughout the years. They have had some stars, but never a defense you feared.

I've alreayd made the main point - and you did too. If you stuck an average QB on the team how would it do? The Patriots were forced into that position after week 1 (so they didn't even get to plan in the off season for this) and they went 11-5 and Cassel had a career year. It was the system and the players around. Again, I said it earlier, I am not trying to say Tom Brady is a scrub because he is certainly not even close. He is definitely in the conversation of best QBs of the era. But, going by your logic, Manning has played with less, won as many regular season games and puts up comparable numbers - and this year showed playing with a new coach, WR injuries, and a young team that he can still win games. He just fell short - which will show up on his resume but shouldn't take away from how great a QB he is.

I think Brady is the most overrated QB of all-time. He has been on great teams, especially great on D when the TEAM was winning, and also had a great O line. Last year without brady the team went 11-5, can't even remember the qb's name, this year with brady back they go 10-7, doesn't say much for brady.

Now, giving brady or any qb all the credit for winning games is a joke. The best D wins the superbowl 90% of the time, maybe more. The qb is only out there half the time, they don;t play D. In Basketball the best palyers play the whole game or most, both O and D, the best players certainly deserve more credit then the QB in football. In baseball the pitcher is mostly responsible for wins and losses for his team. Football on the other hand is the ultimate team game, the QB get's too much credit for the success. The Pat's proved that the last 2 years with and without brady, not much of a difference.

It is a team game. By looking at post-season accomplishments Trent Dilfer would be better than Dan Marino or Fran Tarkenton?

Manning is great, and a great spokesman for the game. The colts problem was defense, they played not to give up the big play, and the Saints drove all over the field.

As far as considering who is the best it is hard to compare today's players to other eras. The league has become pass happy. 10 years ago the quarterbacks got crushed on a regular basis, and now if you breath on them it is 15 yards.

I think just one guy mentioned Steve Young and more people should. He started out in the old WFL and then had to wait behind Montana for a bit, so his NFL starting career is a bit shorter, but he could do an extraordinary number of things well, and his QB rating is the highest of anyone not yet retired.

Brady was out over a year and he comes back to go 10-7, that's pretty damn good. Most touchdowns in a year for a QB, come on. That's f***ing awesome. Plus 3 superbowls, one when you are filling in for someone? He is a winner, a great quarterback.

Is it too early to say Tim Tebow?