They won't change to 10k because they would lose runners. It's a different world when you don't have scholarships to give out.
They won't change to 10k because they would lose runners. It's a different world when you don't have scholarships to give out.
North Central would win wrote:
Michigan State would have all the pressure to win and would be humiliated much like Illinois was by North Central.
First, Illinois did not run their "top" runners in the meet that North Central beat them. Also....Illinois ran the meet as a workout.
Second, Illinois would have probably lost even if they did run the entire team and truly race against North Central because they really suck and their coach sucks at recruiting and coaching. The only thing he is good at is excuse-making.
Third, the Illinois coach is an idiot and........a NORTH CENTRAL ALUM!!! Take the steering wheel away from this stroke.
Lastly, all DIII runners suck!
Actually, NCAA D3 was the worst of the three "Baby Nationals" given that all course and weather conditions were the same, which of course, they were not.
Malone has more reason to brag about its performance than NCC does:
Malone, NAIA winners: 25:18 avg.
24:36, 25:15, 25:27, 25:29, 25:39
Rend Lake, NJCAA winners: 25:22.4 avg.
24:00, 25:21, 25:23, 25:47, 26:18
North Central, NCAA Div. 3 winners: 25:45.9 avg.
25:32, 25:37, 25:46, 25:54, 25:58
Go look at DIII Nationals last year where it took a sub 24:50 to get top 20. Also since I already know, why don't you look up average for Cortland and NCC last year. Even though NCC won this year with a 25:45.9 average, they were almost a full 45 seconds faster overall as a team the year before. This year they were a lot stronger and deeper then they were last year.
Cortland won with a team average of 24:53. The bottom teams at DI would struggle to have their 5 guys average 24:53.
Now before people start flipping out on me for this I would like to state that I ran Division III for 2 years and then competed Division I after I moved. I will say that it is a completely different level and much harder at Division I; obviously! But, when people come on here and say that there is no chance in the world they would compete with them is an understatement.
Congrats to everyone who competed at each level nationally, it was a joy to watch all the races and look at the results. Best of luck indoors and outdoors. Track is a sport where we need to encourage and support each division, especially since we are already getting the shaft from other sports and athletic departments across the US.
Villanova women, top ten?
You can NOT compare times wrote:
Go look at DIII Nationals last year where it took a sub 24:50 to get top 20. Also since I already know, why don't you look up average for Cortland and NCC last year. Even though NCC won this year with a 25:45.9 average, they were almost a full 45 seconds faster overall as a team the year before. This year they were a lot stronger and deeper then they were last year.
Cortland won with a team average of 24:53. The bottom teams at DI would struggle to have their 5 guys average 24:53.
Now before people start flipping out on me for this I would like to state that I ran Division III for 2 years and then competed Division I after I moved. I will say that it is a completely different level and much harder at Division I; obviously! But, when people come on here and say that there is no chance in the world they would compete with them is an understatement.
Congrats to everyone who competed at each level nationally, it was a joy to watch all the races and look at the results. Best of luck indoors and outdoors. Track is a sport where we need to encourage and support each division, especially since we are already getting the shaft from other sports and athletic departments across the US.
Rend Lake averaged 24:57 at the early-season Louiville Invite on Oct. 3, finishing 9th in the field of 38 teams, and far ahead of many Div. 1 teams.
I said you can't compare times, but the Peoria course where NJCAAs were held is a "known" course as it hosts NJCAA regionals.
Malone races plenty of Div. 1 teams as well.
Too many of the D3'ers think they're intelligent -- and fast -- when clearly they are not.
bartemaeus wrote:
Villanova women, top ten?
Keep in mind that NCC is composed of a bunch of 14:3x guys.... ya know, like 20seconds or more faster than Barringer. To those talking about NCC's mileage, they do indeed have some really high mileage guys. Carlson and Brady have pretty routinely run in the 110's. I'm a D1 guys who trains with NCC guys sometimes in the off season and I feel like they would beat at least a few teams at D1 NCAA's, lord knows those dudes train HARD, way harder than I think I've ever trained.
Michigan State had three hard races in a row, with Big Tens, Regionals, and NCAAs, the latter two at 10K (and Big Tens 8.5K or so). NC could focus on peaking just for Nationals. This is just an observation, I do not know enough about the runners to have a good idea of their relative quality and preparation.
I liked the 'blow up' comment above (i.e., the winner in DIII usually had a good race, 31st likely had a bad race (especially since they worked so hard at Regionals).
Its possible wrote:
I run for a community college and the year before I joined we beat Central Michigan University at the MSU invitational.
I have great respect for DIII runners and teams, but no, the top DIII team would not be able to beat the top 50 or so DI programs. Many DIII schools will search for proof that they would indeed be able to beat some top level DI schools, such as comparing times on course that are completely different, or this quote above about the community college beating Central Michigan. More often than not in situations like that, the DI team didn't run their entire varsity. Also, in the case of Central Michigan, they have had some very good teams and some not so good teams. What year did the community college beat them.
Several years ago my team ran our "B" squad at a meet and a DIII school beat them and even though it said "B' team in the results, they told everyone that they beat us, including incoming recruits. At the Notre Dame invite, Notre Dame runs their varsity in one race and their JV in another. Many times DIII schools have listed in their press release that they beat Notre Dame, not mentioning it was their "B" team. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
And yes, I do believe if North Central ran the way they did at DIII nationals in the DI race, they would have beaten one or two of the teams. That does not mean they are better than them.
Maximus wrote:
And yes, I do believe if North Central ran the way they did at DIII nationals in the DI race, they would have beaten one or two of the teams. That does not mean they are better than them.
...What other conclusion could you possibly draw from a result like that? I
f NCC raced at DI Nationals and beat the bottom couple of teams, how can you not say they are a better team? Isn't head-to-head racing the ONLY way we can can conclusively say which teams are better?
They are better on that given day, on that course, under those conditions. If they ran several times head-to-head, they would likely get beat more than 50%, but would still win on occasion.
Who cares? If you are trying to prove D1's superiority, great, we already knew it. These guys get tons of runners on scholarship that run 9:00 or less for 2 miles in high school whereas DIII maybe gets a few 9:30 guys. Overall the D1 has more high caliber runners than DIII. They get the cream of the crop and DIII get leftover scraps.
Could North Central beat Michigan State, who knows, anything can happen on any given day, but the odds are stacked against them. If you seriously think the Villanova women could beat North Central, you must be high.
I find it humorous how a lot of D1 runners think that they are better than any other runner in lower divisions simply because they run on a D1 team. There are plenty of scrub runners in D1 on crappy teams or even riding the JV for their running careers on teams in the bottom 20 to 30 at D1 National teams that would likely not crack the varsity for the top 50 teams in DII or DIII.
I initially thought NCC probably could, but looking at a race where they raced and a back-of-the-nationals-pack D1 school did too, I found the ND invite. Granted, they raced in different divisions, but same course, same day. Florida state was there, who finished 30th at D1. They crushed North central:
FSU #1 24:08; NCC #1: 24:49
FSU #2 24:13; NCC #2: 25:08
FSU #3 24:24; NCC #3: 25:08
FSU #4 24:28; NCC #4: 25:19
FSU #5 25:13; NCC #5: 25:24
And the NCC guys were in the 4th through 15th range, so it's not like they had no one to push them. Granted, proves nothing, but if they stack up that badly on the team that finished 2nd to last on the same day, I think there's not much shot for getting the team that's one back.
the harsh realist wrote:
DII and DIII runners are so extremely gay. I doubt the DIII winners could beat any of our bottom feeders. Their might be a few DII programs that could hang but the overwhelming majority of DII and DIII runners blow.
But perhaps the DIII winners can spell the word "there."
Small problem.. wrote:
Maximus wrote:And yes, I do believe if North Central ran the way they did at DIII nationals in the DI race, they would have beaten one or two of the teams. That does not mean they are better than them.
...What other conclusion could you possibly draw from a result like that? I
f NCC raced at DI Nationals and beat the bottom couple of teams, how can you not say they are a better team? Isn't head-to-head racing the ONLY way we can can conclusively say which teams are better?
Somebody else already explained what I thought was obvious. The last few teams at DI nationals are trying to finish higher than last or second to last and they end up bombing out, not running anywhere close to what they have done during the season or at regionals to qualify for nationals. The top DIII school could possibly beat some of those teams at nationals, but the problem is that they would have to qualify for the DI nationals in a 10k 9 days earlier and they would not even make it to nationals.
NCC could finish in the 25-30 range this year, on a consistent basis, and they could qualify for nationals. Most years the the top DIII team would be in the top 50 DI teams, whoever said otherwise is just a DI homer. No single DI women's team would even qualify for men's DIII nationals. Whoever said that is also an idiot.
And whoever brought up comparing times from courses. This year's DIII course was obviously slow. Kosgei, who ran 2340 at paul short, wasnt even on sub 25 pace when he got passed.
The better question is could Fayetteville Manlius girls or the York boys team beat the last place teams at D3 Nationals
yes, really not much of a question. (spoken as a DIII runner who still follows high school running)
dfskjdsaf;kljsad;lfkjs wrote:
NCC could finish in the 25-30 range this year, on a consistent basis, and they could qualify for nationals.
Nah. Put them in the race, and they have a decent chance of finishing higher than 31 because so much crazy stuff goes down at nats. But could they earn their way there? That means beating Texas or Michigan State (two really really weak auto qualifiers). I don't think they could do it. Look again at the results someone posted showing NCC vs FSU at Notre Dame invite. Besides FSU's horrible 5th guy, it's a blowout.
Somebody go look up the 5K/10K times of NCC vs. Michigan State. I'm too lazy.