Does Seb Coe belong in same discussion as W. Kipketer as greatest 800 runners of all time?

Kipketer was in many fast rabbited races that summer.

1:42.61 - 7/2/97 in Lausanne

1:41.73 - 7/7/97 in Stockholm

1:41.24 - 8/13/97 in Zurich

1:42.77 - 8/16/97 in Monaco

1:42.20 - 8/22/97 in Brussels

1:41.11 - 8/24/97 in Koln

1:42.98 - 9/13/97 in Fukuoka

If he could have run 1:40-mid, he would have. He did not, which means it was not possible for him.

its infuriating wrote:

Kipketer was in many fast rabbited races that summer.

1:42.61 - 7/2/97 in Lausanne

1:41.73 - 7/7/97 in Stockholm

1:41.24 - 8/13/97 in Zurich

1:42.77 - 8/16/97 in Monaco

1:42.20 - 8/22/97 in Brussels

1:41.11 - 8/24/97 in Koln

1:42.98 - 9/13/97 in Fukuoka

If he could have run 1:40-mid, he would have. He did not, which means it was not possible for him.

Oops, that Fukuoka race wouldn't have been rabbited. But he still had 6 other time trial attempts, and he was in peak condition because the World Championship were held the first week of August. What he ran is what he had in him.

Coe's politics make him a nimrod.

But he was the best 800 runner of all time; his records put him in a league of 1 at the time, and revolutionized the event. He ran his times with out the advantages of being born at altitude, or having massive pacemakers right and left.

I think if he and Kipketer had raced in the same era, that Coe would have run even faster.

The guy had more athletic courage than anyone I've ever seen race - he put himself through the pain like no other.

coe did not race the 800 with frequency on the circuit, nor did he run many non-championship races while in peak form. he ran his 1:41.73 in early june. had he run while he was peaking in late aug/early sep of '81 a sub 1:41 was a near certainty and sub 1:40 a possibility.

Sheriff Buford T. Pusser wrote:

I am biggest fan around of Coe but Coe broke 1:43 twice and Kipketer 19 times if my eyes are correct. They lived in different eras but still - the quantity of Kip's supremely fast times dwarf Coe's.

of course he does!! I believe people have been questioning

his 1.41 race (in Florence?). Perhaps UKathleticscoach or

others can fill me in??

go see that zurich race off a 48.5 & tell us what it wouda been off a 49.5

I cannot help but agree with ventolin; it is clear that Kipketer's performances, especially his

solo 1:42.67i at the WCs, (following a similar 1:43.96 blowout in the heats!) given that no one else has gone under 1:44i; moreover Coe only bettered that mark twice outdoors!

What's more,

it is not difficult to see that recording

1:41.24 off a blistering 48.5 first lap

compared with his WR run of

1:41.11 with a 49.3 first lap

indicate that he could have recorded a mark under 1:41.

That said, in all fairness I believe Coe could have gotten very near 1:41-flat for reasons discussed earlier.

But really, ventolin, why do you insist upon replacing the perfectly functional and commonly accepted term 'rabbit' with the singular mutilation that is 'wabbit??'

Just curious!

xxx wrote:

of course he does!! I believe people have been questioning

his 1.41 race (in Florence?). Perhaps UKathleticscoach or

others can fill me in??

Just how incomparable was Coe at 800?

Take away his 1.41.73 recorded at what is hardly a legendary athletic arena, Florence, and with a broken down, (for that race) official timekeeping system - what else is there?

Keep in mind, Cruz ran 1.41.77 during his tour of Europe - but look at Coe’s next best five 800mts times and what do we find:

1.42.33

1.43.07

1.43.38

1.43.64

1.43.80

Now look at Steve Cram, who didn’t consider himself a 800mt runner and look at this best five times over the distance:

1.42.88

1.43.19

1.43.22

1.43.42

1.43.61.

Worth thinking about.

The only reason Coe didnt' run more 1.41s / 1.42s was because he was farting about with the 1500m/mile. What a muppet....

its infuriating wrote:

Kipketer was in many fast rabbited races that summer.

1:42.61 - 7/2/97 in Lausanne

1:41.73 - 7/7/97 in Stockholm

1:41.24 - 8/13/97 in Zurich

1:42.77 - 8/16/97 in Monaco

1:42.20 - 8/22/97 in Brussels

1:41.11 - 8/24/97 in Koln

1:42.98 - 9/13/97 in Fukuoka

If he could have run 1:40-mid, he would have. He did not, which means it was not possible for him.

If the rabbit hadn't gone out so quickly in Zurich, he would have run under 1:41.00.

same applies to Cram:)

ventolin wrote:

go see that zurich race off a 48.5 & tell us what it wouda been off a 49.5

Arcane Denial wrote:

What's more,

it is not difficult to see that recording

1:41.24 off a blistering 48.5 first lap

compared with his WR run of

1:41.11 with a 49.3 first lap

indicate that he could have recorded a mark under 1:41.

fawn leibowitz wrote:

If the rabbit hadn't gone out so quickly in Zurich, he would have run under 1:41.00.

How can you all assert that so confidently?

Going out 1 second slower for the first 400 doesn't necessarily mean you'll come back 1.5 seconds faster for the second 400.

The fact is you don't have any clue what would have happened. Maybe 49.3 was the *perfect* opening lap for him. Any slower (50.x) and he runs 1:42, any faster (48.x) and he runs 1:41-1:42. The only way to find out is to race a bunch of times and take your best time. Well, that's what he did, and he "only" ever managed 1:41.11.

beacause history tells us the 2s split differential is one most commonly used to run the 800pb ( not saying it's right, but you have to give history it's due )

so

1'45.0 -> 51.5/53.5

1'44.0 -> 51.0/53.0

1'43.0 -> 50.5/52.5

1'42.0 -> 50.0/52.0

1'41.0 -> 49.5/51.5

1'40.0 -> 49.0/51.0

1'39.0 -> 48.5/50.5

his zurich split of 48.5 was 1'39.0 pace !!!

Coe's best 800m was quite possibly his 1:42.3 first WR which came as a surprise to him (was aiming for Fiasconaro's European record of 1:43.7. John Walker maintained that he could have run under 1:40, he was hardly out of breath. Perhaps if he'd been solely an 800m runner he would have taken it down by another second that summer, but he was chasing the mile and 1500 WR's which as pointed out must have affected his 800's.

His 1500m training/racing no doubt helped his 800m ability.

positively fourth by a street wrote:

Coe's best 800m was quite possibly his 1:42.3 first WR which came as a surprise to him (was aiming for Fiasconaro's European record of 1:43.7. John Walker maintained that he could have run under 1:40, he was hardly out of breath. Perhaps if he'd been solely an 800m runner he would have taken it down by another second that summer, but he was chasing the mile and 1500 WR's which as pointed out must have affected his 800's.

going back to the OP's original question I think we have found the answer... Yes, Coe is definitely in the same league as Kipketer, why?

Because if there was no comparison between the two, you would not have induced such a large internet slap fest.

I think it was a weird question to begin with because I think without a doubt Coe's continual ability to win and his dominance of the wr means he is definitely in the top tier of 800 meter runners of all time. Case closed.

positively fourth by a street wrote:

Coe's best 800m was quite possibly his 1:42.3 first WR which came as a surprise to him (was aiming for Fiasconaro's European record of 1:43.7. John Walker maintained that he could have run under 1:40, he was hardly out of breath

that was not borne out by his 1'41.7

in that he split 49.5/25.5/26.7

he was fading badly in the last 200 from 1'40.0 pace at 600m

on the runs wrote:

His 1500m training/racing no doubt helped his 800m ability.

positively fourth by a street wrote:

Coe's best 800m was quite possibly his 1:42.3 first WR which came as a surprise to him (was aiming for Fiasconaro's European record of 1:43.7. John Walker maintained that he could have run under 1:40, he was hardly out of breath. Perhaps if he'd been solely an 800m runner he would have taken it down by another second that summer, but he was chasing the mile and 1500 WR's which as pointed out must have affected his 800's.

Who can say whether or not his 1500m training helped his 800m ability. It's probably more pertinent to suggest that he would have run much faster over 1500m had he concentrated solely on that rather than the 800m. Regardless, his record over both is more impressive than anyone in the last 40 years.

I don't see how his 1:42.3 was better than his 1:41.7 in early June?

With several further attempts at the record in August/Sep, he would almost certainly have run faster. There has also been a lot of uncertainty over Coe's splits in Florence. His first lap was given as 49.9 for years, then was revised to 49.7. Close inspection of the race video using a stopwatch gives 1:41.5, so if anything Coe might have been let down by a few hundredths by the photo cell they used for official purposes.

The fact that Kipketer has run far more sub 1:43 800m's isn't relevant in comparing these 2, because many of those were set in an attempt to break Coe's record. No one says Snell can't be the greatest ever because he only broke 1:45 once.

Besides, the nature of the circuit in the late 90s was very different to the late 70s & early 80s. Why would Coe want to keep exerting himself running solo 1:41/42s at a time when hardly anyone else could break 1:44 and he was 1.71 secs faster than anyone else in history? At least Kipketer had a bunch of other runners in the 1:42/43 area that could push him in some of the big races. Another reason for the lack of super fast times by Coe was his problems in 82/83. He really never got himself in a position to be chasing the 800 Wr again after 81. He possibly could have got close at the end of 84, but got injured during his 1st post LA race in Zurich and had to end his season prematurely again.

In AW at the end of 81 Coe intimated "that he may experiment with a 48-49 sec first lap (in 82) with a view to bringing the 800 record down to 1:40,..."

In August 83, having scratched from the Worlds with toxoplasmosis, he was interviewed in AW and said, "As far as the 800m goes, the game is up. Helsinki would have been my swansong. I have been obliged to walk away from an event I did not believe I had yet fully explored,.."

I think both could have broken 1:41 in the right conditions, but it should be noted that Coe was running almost 20 years earlier. That speaks volumes.

ventolin wrote:

positively fourth by a street wrote:

Coe's best 800m was quite possibly his 1:42.3 first WR which came as a surprise to him (was aiming for Fiasconaro's European record of 1:43.7. John Walker maintained that he could have run under 1:40, he was hardly out of breath

that was not borne out by his 1'41.7

in that he split 49.5/25.5/26.7

he was fading badly in the last 200 from 1'40.0 pace at 600m

No, his 400m split was 49.7.