Anyone ever try training like Frank Shorter?

No Way wrote: If you are training for the marathon then running 400 and mile repeats without any tempo runs is fool hearty in my experience.

You have to be kidding me. Please tell me that you didn't just spell "foolhardy" as "fool hearty." Is it actually possible to be that stupid?

bingo wrote:

120 mpw is not simple, no matter how you slice it. Give it a try, stick to your 400 and mile repeats and forget about those tempo runs. I've found that 90% of the runners I know run them way, way, too fast - then wonder why they suck ass on race day, and burn out 2 weeks into the season.

I find it easy to run my own tempos at the right pace . . . and impossible to coach my runners to run tempos at the right pace.

The difference is the group setting tends to foster competition. And sending them off to do a tempo on their own lets the slackers do what they do best, which is of course slack, while the overachievers try to overachieve.

Ugh.

You're exactly right. Groups bring out the best in the slackers, but tend to bring out too much for most of the group. Yet, especially for high schoolers, letting them run a good hard effort on their own often means it's unmonitored to the detriment of the vast majority of them.

The easy conversion for high schoolers, in my experience, is 25 seconds slower per mile than one's 5k time. This for a 20-30 minute tempo run. I've also heard it explained that one should be able to hold a conversation, but one should have to take a breath between every two words or so.

For more experienced runners, the best way I've heard it explained is where one can run another two miles at the same pace or faster. This is easier the longer one is going - for a ten miler, run it at HM pace.

Doy!

Spelling mistakes here are typically based on what the words sound like in speech (hearty/hardy, then/than, etc.), which indicates that a lot of letsrunners talk a lot but don't read or write much.

Yep, then the top Mer'cuns could run:

13:26.6

27:45.91

2:10:30

Yessiree boy! Blow them Afercun's away! I tell you whut!

They couldn\'t train like Frank did in Gainesville. They would have to go to a no name bar with 3-4 law text books and order a pitcher of brew. They now have to be at Starbucks with a laptop that mommy bought and a cell that daddy bought so they can text their coach how they felt during their workout. I can\'t imagine Herb Lindsey (sp) or Greg Meyer doing this!

Yep, just like Hall and Sell and those other slackers.

Folks should never on here, trash Steve Magness, not Mugness

He ran faster in HS than most ever will ever.4:01.x or 3:44 in HS, 1:52 and 2:56 1200, many would kill for that.

Just because things have not worked out for Steve yet, do not think for one minute that many have worked harder, or dealt with more.

People should be ashamed of themselves if they ever go after him, he has tried harder to get it right than many who quit or gave up.

True, but it's not like "for all intensive purposes," which just doesn't make sense. Fool hearty kind of sounds okay, so I can understand the mistake. I would not be surprised if heart is the root word. I mean, a fool following his heart might lead to foolhardy behavior.

CraigMac4h wrote:

"Why don't I write a book on training? Because it'd be like a page long, that's why."

-Frank Shorter, on being asked why he didn't try to sell his "training program."

This sums up all good ideas - if you can't put them on a postcard, they are not robust enough to stand up to the vagaries of cirsumstance

Investments

Relationships

School

Work

etc.

I am not a Luddite by any means, but everything has to boil down to a few elements or it will not be implemented consistently.

In the name of Brian Sell wrote:

Yep, just like Hall and Sell and those other slackers.

Brian Sell does not own a cell phone.

Timdog wrote:

I've noticed from looking at elite training logs that everyone seems to follow this same sort of training.

One speed session

One tempo session

One long-interval session

Long run

Easy days in between

Then you haven't looked at very many elite training logs

from 1970 through 1979, he averaged 17 miles a day (120 wk). Much of it was at high altitude and with hundreds of races thrown in.

His routine was highly structed. he trained twice a day, Monday through Saturday, doing his first workout at 11am and the 2nd before dinner.

On Sunday, Shorter ran once, putting in 20 miles. He started at a 6:30 pace and worked down to race pace, 5 min a mile. He believed in neg splits - running 2nd half faster. Monday recovery run. 7 miles in morning and 10 pm, but not that fast (very easy).

Tues-speed day- 7am run - afternoon - 4 x 1320 (312 to 306) track workout - w/660 jog. Another workout-16 x 400 (60's) w/100 meter jog, 4 x 800's (205's)

Wednesday-same as monday

Thursday - more speedwork 400's

Friday same as monday

saturday race or mix of ave paced milage with an accelerated pace.

os 1972 he trained 3 x day at altitude 8000feet in colorado. mileage was 170 week. equivalent to 200 at sea level.

small review - copy from run with the champions

trialswatcher wrote:

Folks should never on here, trash Steve Magness, not Mugness

He ran faster in HS than most ever will ever.4:01.x or 3:44 in HS, 1:52 and 2:56 1200, many would kill for that.

Just because things have not worked out for Steve yet, do not think for one minute that many have worked harder, or dealt with more.

People should be ashamed of themselves if they ever go after him, he has tried harder to get it right than many who quit or gave up.

Sorry, Steve.

runner_dude91 wrote:Tempos in my opinion are much more important then intervals, especially in the marathon which requires more strength work then actual speed.

troopy wrote:

It's "than."

Unless... the marathon requires, *first*, more strength work and *then*, actual speed.

Frank Shorter's training is pretty much right on for anyone in the professional (business world) or intense graduate school. I just graduated & have started law school. Basically that's what I have been doing for the past few months & it's working wonderfully. I've seen drastic improvements in my fitness. All the complicated stuff my coach had me doing in undergrad just didn't work. Things seem to really be clicking. It's very simple, common sense training. If I feel tired, I don't run hard. If I feel good, I will do a workout.

It's not rocket science, it's running...

So many people want to go out there & crank out tons of workouts & then feel too beat up to get in any miles. You need a big engine... So many high school & college kids forget that. I'll take my strength over their speed anyday.

Ez10Miler wrote:

Watch some of the "workout wednesday" videos on flotrack. You'll see the elites do the same damn workouts that the rest of do, they just do them faster.

Amen to that! Quote of the day.

Yes wrote:

Frank Shorter's training is pretty much right on for anyone in the professional (business world) or intense graduate school. I just graduated & have started law school. Basically that's what I have been doing for the past few months & it's working wonderfully. I've seen drastic improvements in my fitness. All the complicated stuff my coach had me doing in undergrad just didn't work. Things seem to really be clicking. It's very simple, common sense training. If I feel tired, I don't run hard. If I feel good, I will do a workout.

It's not rocket science, it's running...

So many people want to go out there & crank out tons of workouts & then feel too beat up to get in any miles. You need a big engine... So many high school & college kids forget that. I'll take my strength over their speed anyday.

I've wondered about doing things like this as well. Though I'm not busy right now because I'm on summer break, I'm gonna be busy next semester because my course load is not really tough, but it's gonna take up a lot of my time. So not thinking about it too much and training based on how I feel seems like a good idea. If I'm feeling refreshed and energized, get a good workout in, since I'll get more benefit out of it then. If I'm feeling like shit or tired or just don't have much time, put in an easier run. I remember during HS XC my senior year, I ran a ton of miles (at the time), up to about 50-55 a week over the summer. I PRed by a full minute my first race back and we had just started doing workouts. Then I started feeling flat and tired all the time. Didn't PR till the last race of the year when we peaked. I felt like I would have been better without as many workouts being hammered 3xweek and just running more miles with some workouts thrown in when I felt good.

Didn't Shorter claim that 'speedwork makes you faster, but tempo runs just prove how fast you got'?