Stress Fracture, What now?? Need some advice.

Malmo says: You need to be taking notes, not giving advice.

The Concrete Guy says: Banhammer and Stress Fracture, you need to listen to this guy. He has offered both of you the best advice you are going to get. Pro bono...gratis...on the house.

I just want to add one thing, be careful about starting walking for an hour at a time, that's what aggravated my injuries.

Malmo, if you take a look at the top 800M times in the past 15 years, since 1993, there are no Americans. The list is populated with some Europeans, many Africans, but no Americans. Where are they? What happened? The hard interval training advocated in the HS years hurts the prospects of our young men becoming world class athletes later on. Take a look at Alan Webb- He ran a 3:53 in high school- when he was 18. In HS Webb ran low mileage and instead hammered repeat workouts day after day. Now, 7 years later, Webb has only shaved off 6 seconds? Now 3:47 is a sick time but think of what he could be doing if he concentrated on the long term!!! This advice that you are giving him Malmo will result in short term mediocrity, and almost no long term benefits, especially if he gets reinjured! I respect your experience and sucess with running but you can't convince me that he will run his potential with a month of base training!!! Besides, I'm not really understanding why you are advocating low mileage when your claim to fame, the Summer of Malmo, advocates mileage above and beyond what you have ever done before!

Banhammer

You seem to have lost your integrity, 2007 - Alan Webb, USA world #2.

Unless the kid is going to run in future Olympics (which I'd assume he'd have a professional coach who would answer these questions) then he should take his rest, do some aerobic x-training and get ready to race track if he's healthy. If things don't go to plan he can always cut short track and work on base for next season.

This isn't a Kenya vs US argument (I'm a Brit by the way and not inclined to support either 'so called method')

Foot

Give it up Banhammer, you are no match (and you are wrong). Malmo has 35 years experience and I have 33. The principles espoused by Malmo are sound and unwavering. You are all over the place and would be thrown off any debate team worth their salt. Talk to us again in 30 years, after you've learned a few things.

The Banhammer wrote:rambling blather.

Kid. I don't advocate any mileage, either high nor low. It is clear your reading comprehension skills are still being developed, and you certainly are no historian of the sport.

I think you would be advised to look up the facts before you speak from now on.

World ranked (top 10) 800m runners in the last 15 years.

Johnny Gray, Marrk Everett,Brandon Rock , Rich Kenah, David Krumminaker, Khadavis Robinson, Alan Webb, Nick Symmonds

"This advice that you are giving him Malmo will result in short term mediocrity, and almost no long term benefits, especially if he gets reinjured!"

This is circular reasoning. You keep repeating your unfounded premise as proof that the premise is true. It's not.

Banhammer, you seem like a pretty bright kid. I do not know much about certain methods of trainings over others, as I am a casual marathoner. I love to run, and both my sons are avid cross country runners, so my passion for high school running has lived through them. Like I said, you seem to have smarts about you, hold onto that, as it will take you far.

Yet Banhammer, you must understand that you are arguing with coaches who know what they’re talking about. I for one cannot tell you what is right or wrong (in terms of training methods), you bring about valid points, yet you do owe skwilli and malmo respect, just for the fact that they are older and more experienced than you (That doesn’t mean they’re right).

Malmo, I understand that by your accomplishments as a coach and as an athlete, you deserve a certain level of well-deserved respect. Yet you have lost my respect for the comments you posted towards Banhammer. We’re the grown-ups here, yet I find myself ashamed that as adults, we are setting such poor images to these youngsters.

I don’t know if you remember how you were as a teenager, but, like you said in an above post, “you’re at the age where the gap between what you think you know and what you know is at its widest”. Yeah, he’s a teenager! I got a couple of my own! Yet I don’t understand why he should not try to give advice to his friend, since because he is young he must also be ignorant. That is simply a false and immature statement to say.

“Give it up Banhammer, you are no match (and you are wrong). Malmo has 35 years experience and I have 33. The principles espoused by Malmo are sound and unwavering. You are all over the place and would be thrown off any debate team worth their salt. Talk to us again in 30 years, after you've learned a few things.”

This post humiliates me. I don’t understand why the teenager has the moral high-ground! Please try and be more respectful to each other, as this only fuels anger and hate.

Wow.

Well I think I need to say a few things.

First, Malmo. Any advice you give is definitley appreciated. If anybody doesn't respect your advice and listen intently they don't know what they are talking about.

I just have a few questions for you.

First, I don't think it is a good idea to walk right now. I have a stress fracture and the doctor said if I had kept running, I would have had serious problems. I think it is a better idea to rest for a few weeks and be completely off of it, and then maybe start running.

Also, about the whole mileage and skipping track season thing.

Last summer, our XC team pretty much did our own thing, but based on the "summer of malmo". And it has worked better than ever before. We have 4 freshman under 17 minutes for 5K, one of them running 16:51 and two others under 17:30.

Our whole top 7 will be under 17:00 (and that is not including me) and we should have 3 possibly under 16:00 on a fast course.

What I don't understand is how I can expect to have a good track season (outdoors, we don't have indoor track). Lets say 3-4 months, and I start running Februrary 1st. I don't think that I will be like most other kids who don't train in the winter. I will be starting from scratch pretty much. Contrary to what a lot of people have said in this thread, as of now, I CAN NOT do any aqua jogging because any motion with my hip aggravates the injury.

My question is, why don't I just start the summer of malmo in Februrary, and instead of having what I think will be a mediocre track season this year running 2:04 or 2:05, set myself up for a great senior year.

I can build up to 100 miles a week if I start building a base in Februrary.

Please let me know what you think, thanks.

As I stated before, you are the only one with the immediate feedback who can make the decision when to start back. If your body is telling you "no" then wait. I think it's a mistake to just take off a few weeks and start running. Try walking first.

Why the obsession with "base"? Why 100 miles a week? You're running 800 meters aren't you? Why have you talked yourself into believing you'll be "mediocre"? Quit listening your your friend, he doesn't know what he's talking about. When I was in high school I basically didn't do squat until February (Sr) or March (So and Jr). You are at the age where you'll improve just because your body is maturing with each passing month.

If you really understood what SOM means you'd understand that starting out in March is just fine. You do realize that you can start running track workouts that are aerobic, don't you? You do realize that you can make dramatic improvements in a manner of weeks if you're patient?

I think some of you guys have trapped yourself into some fantasy that you need to "get base" then go to some next step, as if it was a sacrosanct progression that can't be broken. "Base" is something that is accumulated over years. "Base" is something that is continually being built. You make want to structure your years in phases, but if you can't, there's nothing lost, just get on with it. Running and life are a lot like a card game - you play the cards that you are dealt, not the ones you'd like to have.

All runners should have the mindset that they are athletes and a competitors first and foremost. They should crave competition, not fabricate ways to avoid it. If you are a competitor first, you'll soon become a runner. Good luck.

Here is a little backgroud as to where SOM came from:

"Summer of Malmo" was born out of John Schiefer's Track&FieldMedia.com message board almost ten years ago. Tranck&FieldMedia was the "Granddaddy of the running message boards" and had Schiefer not decided to spend more time on his day job Letsrun would have never become the "world famous message board" it is today.

Track&FieldMedia.com was just like it is here today, full of runners looking for the secret workout or the secret program that will take them to the next step. Every year about this time they start devising all sort of ingenious plans for the Summer to get them ready for cross country season. Then, as it is now, they were looking for a blueprint for the Summer, when in reality there is no blueprint, there are no secret workouts at all. All there is, is consistency, persistence and patience -- just as it always was. Summer of Malmo is a concept, not a blueprint, not a plan and certainly not a system. What it is, is all things to all runners, I guarantee it. Feel free to adjust it to suit your needs.

Knowing that "consistency, persistence and patience" doesn't excite anyone, one day I posted on T&FMedia.com that I had the Summer program that was exactly what all of the young bucks were looking for, and that when I get a chance I'll post it. This became somewhat of a running joke at the T&FMedia message boards, each week someone would ask about my summer "training" program and each week I's say, I'm still "working on it.

Finally in June, I realized I couldn't procrastinate any longer, so I sat down and wrote "Summer of Malmo" with the Seinfeld episode of "Summer of George" in the background on TV. It was born part out of reality, the Summer of 1989 that Terrance Mahon decided he was going to get serious, and went from unknown scrub to College All-America, but it was also part reflection of mine as to how high school and college runners should go about training during the Summer months between seasons.

Historically, runners tend to come from two camps; their motivation gets misplaced during the Summer and they do too little training to prepare themselves for XC, or they train too hard, come to school in great shape and don't improve, causing disillusionment and misplaced blame on their coaches for ruining them.

I decided that if I could do it over again, or if I were a college coach, I'd direct my runners that the first thing they should do when they get home from school after the Spring semester is to call all of their old running friends up and make a commitment to meet twice weekly for informal training sessions. I'd tell them to put the word out to all of the local high school teams and invite them to the training sessions as well. The point of those sessions would be that this is a social event and the workouts would be low-stress aerobic training. All workouts would be run at an intensity level that is well within their abilities.

The idea of having runners all run the same pace, periodically jumping in and out of the workout that the lead group is doing, also came out of that Summer of 1989. I had been knocked out of training by a dose of sciatica. When I started running, I decided that rather than building up my mileage with all easy runs, I'd start doing interval work on the track immediately, but I'd start off running slow and short, gradually lengthening the distance and increasing the speed as my body let me. The original "Summer of Terrance" group consisted of Terrance Mahon, Peter Fonseca, Brad Hudson, Colin Dalton and myself, with assorted guest stars jumping in (not sure how many times Pat Haller made it) depending on who was in town for that session. There were times that I'd jump in for a lap (while the group was running a 5 mile tempo run) then wait until they got back around, then I'd jump in again, and so on. Each week I'd run a little bit more and/or a little bit faster, finally by the end of the Summer I caught up to the leaders. This was the easiest Summer of good training I ever had.

hey man, you dont know what your saying, listen to these guys, just shut up and stop trying to help your friend, its just going to backfire

There is no need to decide now:

1. Let the injury heal. I would err on the side of the 3-4 months rather than the 6 - 8 weeks but that's up to you.

2. Once it is healed, start your rehab, begin running, start getting stronger.

3. When spring track rolls around, decide then. Are you feeling at all strong? Are you running well. If so, go for it. Do track and see what happens. You might have a great season

On the other hand, if you are not feeling well, by all means SKIP track. It is not that important. There is no need to jump into track workouts and races when you are running like crap. You will never miss a season of mediocre performances.

malmo wrote:

All runners should have the mindset that they are athletes and a competitors first and foremost. They should crave competition, .

Why?

Okay. First of all I would like all of you to congratulate yourselves and give each other a pat on the back. Here we have three or four 30 or 40 year old men ganging up on a 16 year old. You should be very proud of yourselves! Good Job! Not to mention it's very low class. I tried to treat you guys with respect and have a civilized debate but it looks like you all are not capable of such a thing.

Moving on, I would just like to point out that I am neither an idiot nor incorrect in the facts I present. I was simply observing that in the past 15 years, there have been zero American runners at the TOP (number one) of the 800 meter season best list from 1993 to 2008. So before you go out and criticize my integrity Foot, you might want to try to work on YOUR reading comprehension skills a little bit.

Okay so Swilli, I dont know what you've accomplished in your running career, but experience does not mean squat if you don't use it to your advantage. Example: If you're a 40 year old alcoholic failure, then you probably are not wiser than the 25 year old CEO. The same concept applies to running experience. You have to earn respect and then people will listen to you.

Malmo You have indeed earned my respect with the huge successes you've had with running. My respect for you as a runner still stands, but as a person I am deeply disappointed in the way you treat those younger than you. You assume that every Junior in HS is some kid who "thinks he knows alot" and has nothing to say but "rambling blather"? That is quite an assumption! And you are indeed mistaken. It is unwise to blindly assume all young men have to say is rambling blather. You very obviously do not have children or you would not conduct yourself in this manner I would hope.

If Alan Webb did indeed run the second best time in the world in 2007, that is an amazing accomplishment. However, one cannot help himself but stop and think: What if? What if Webb did not hammer intervals day after day instead of putting in the miles? What if Webb focused on his long term development rather than the short term? How much faster could he be now??? Instead of dropping 6 seconds off the mile in 7 years, what kind of times could Webb be running now? Well, I guess we will never know. Malmo what you are encouraging the OP to do is be short sighted. Only think a month in advance, rather than years. This is not the mentality we should have as high schoolers, and until people start thinking long term development, then we will never be the best we can be as individuals and as Americans.

Friends, we can either disagree some more, or we can agree to disagree. I'm up for both.

Hey stop trying to sound like the good guy here since you are the one who was being an ass. All I am saying is that you are ignorant, since you are young and that maybe you should actually listen to what other guys say instead of throwing in your own opinion of stuff you really kno nothing on. These guys know what they talking about, so maybe you should learn when to just shut up and let them hlep.

And how have you earned respect again? You say I haven't earned any, yet you are 16 years old, how could you possibly know? I will grant you exactly same the respect I would give to any 16 year-old whose previous arguments were specious. I don't ask for any of your respect at all, I have no need for it. As a podiatrist who has treated many runners over 22 years, I feel I have the ability to comment on stress fractures of the lower extremity with some expertise. Malmo has given you good advice, which you apparently are beginning to comprehend (good for you). But Malmo will also tell you not to just take anyone's advice on this board; you are the most important part of the equation. Listen to your body and don't make others' preconceived opinions alter your path.

My running career has been a big part of my life, and continues every day (to a limited extent!). 62,000 miles have instilled a little wisdom and 5 separate stress fractures (I know about). I have been a champion and a chump and everything in between. I've met some great people, run with some of the world's best and lived to tell about it. The people I have run with are still the best friends I have ever made. I truly wish you have as much luck as I have had. And don't argue with your elders, especially Malmo. (Sorry Malmo!)

skwilli,

I think you are getting me mixed up with my teammate, but thanks for your advice, really. It is all appreciated.

Just incase anyone was wondering about the actualy injury (even though this arguement has gotten much more exciting/ridiculous that the injury), I talked to a PT today, and I could be out a lot closer to the 3-4 months than the 6-8 week range I said yesterday.

I am just going to take everything by feel, stay on crutches for a few weeks before starting to WALK (thanks malmo) and then from there I'll see what is best to do.

In order to stay in some aerobic shape I will be in the pool, with one of those balls to keep my feet together and just use my arms to stay afloat. I will do that for an hour or so a day. That wasn't a very good description, I think you know what I mean.

Haha alright I'm done with the big four paragraph responses now. I'm not disrespecting my elders. If I disagree with them I have a right to do so. Haha if anybody on this thread has the respect of the OP it's going to be me because I'm actually on his team and am good friends with him. What I don't understand is why everybody is being such an a**? We disagree. There's no reason to be a d*** about it.

-been there:

I would also recomend that you use this time to consider switching to minimalism. I struggled with injuries for 5 years; I now train in racing flats and it has saved my career. I'm running higher mileage than ever and havn't been injured since I switched (about a year ago). It is not for everybody, but it is for those who are frequently injured. Do some research on minimalism and you find out for yourself what works, don't let people tell you what works for you. If you do go minimalist, I highly recomend starting in something like the nike Jasari+ or the nike zoom RS+. Then slowly transition to less of a shoe from there.

He is already a minimalist. He switched over gradually after coming back from his ankle tendon injury last track season/summer. He actually converted a couple members of our team, including myself, to minimalism.

amen.