Honestly unless you feel like absolutely crap for several days straight I wouldn't use an ice bath...in fact you should probably just take time off. I wouldn't depend on it because whats going to happen when you can't get to an ice bath? I'll tell you what's going to happen, you're going to get hurt and you're going to get injured because your body never learned how to recover on its own.
antitrollism wrote:
dude, no disrespect but please tell me youre still in elementary school to explain your answer. Your blood vessels clamp down in response to cold. The redness you might see after an ice bath is porbably a combo of some minor cold-indiced burn of the skin if youve been in too long and a compensatory dilation of your vasculature to try to restore blood flow to a heretofore clamped down area.
antitrollism: I think you just answered your own criticism. "compensatory dilation of your vasculature to try to restore blood flow to a heretofore clamped down area," which to me sounds like increased blood flow.
the human body's healing mechanism evolved over millions of years to be as efficient and quick as possible. Why would icing, which would induce something the body could do on it's own anyway, speed that up?
ticktock wrote:
the human body's healing mechanism evolved over millions of years to be as efficient and quick as possible. Why would icing, which would induce something the body could do on it's own anyway, speed that up?
So by your logic we should never have to take any medicine, certainly don’t need to because the human body heals as quick as possible. I am sure after you reread your post you will recognize how foolish it is. Ice, aspirin, and many other interventions slow and reduce inflammation and speed recovery. It’s a fact it is not something that is debatable. Now all the particular molecular signaling events etc are still being teased out but there is not debate, ice works.
we use them twice a week after tough workout sessions, 50 degrees for 15 mins- a killer but seems to help! If its ok with Meb and Adam Goucher then its got to be good for us with speeding up recovery and avoiding possible injuries.
This thread exposes an amazing amount of ignorance. It well illustrates the saying that anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
I don't know if they do anything but make my feet feel better. Why, how, who cares. My feet feel better when I do them.
ice bath = good feeling = fratting chicks
The Globe and Mail (Canada)
May 9, 2008 Friday
It's best to chill after a heavy workout
BYLINE: ALEX HUTCHINSON,
jockology@globeandmail.comSECTION: GLOBE LIFE COLUMN; JOCKOLOGY: RECOVERY: ICE BATHS; Pg. L2
LENGTH: 581 words
Alex Hutchinson draws on the latest research to answer your fitness and workout questions in this biweekly column on the science of sport.
The Question
Does cold really help recovery after a hard workout?
The Answer
As appealing as the prospect of a soak in the hot tub after a workout may sound, the consensus among elite athletes is that you're better off doing the opposite.
Ice baths - one or more 10-minute stints in a tub of water kept at 12 to 15 C by adding ice - have become a ritualized response for athletes dealing with everything from the heavy impact of bone-jarring tackles to the repetitive stress of a marathoner's three-hour run.
Two-time Olympic miler Kevin Sullivan, for example, takes ice baths after every hard session. "And then if I'm feeling a little stiff or tired heading into a race," he says, "I'll try to use them in the days immediately leading up to the race."
The logic behind ice baths relates to the muscle damage that results from hard workouts. This damage is actually a good thing, because the "microtears" are what stimulate new muscle growth, says Greg Wells, an exercise physiologist at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto who advises several Canadian Olympic teams.
But the damage also produces muscle soreness, which peaks one or two days after the workout and can interfere with subsequent training. Ice baths cause blood vessels to constrict, forcing waste products out of the affected area. "It's almost like wringing out a sponge," Dr. Wells says. Then, when the area warms up again, new blood rushes in to help the healing process.
At least, that's the theory. But scientists putting ice baths to the test under laboratory conditions have produced mixed results.
Two Australian studies published last year illustrate the confusion. The first, from the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found no reduction in pain, swelling or muscle impairment in subjects who received three one-minute immersions in 5 C water after heavy leg-extension exercises.
The second, from the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, also had subjects perform leg presses, but used a longer ice bath and concluded that the technique was "associated with a smaller reduction, and faster restoration, of strength and power."
The question has yet to be answered to anyone's satisfaction, in part because it's not clear how to measure success, according to Peter Brukner of the University of Melbourne, a co-author of the first study.
"Even though our research [on ice baths] was unconvincing, I still encourage their use," he said in an e-mail.
For the pros who swear by ice baths, the simple definition of success is whether they feel good the next day - and that try-it-and-see approach is appropriate for recreational athletes, too, says sports physician Ian Cohen of the University of Toronto's MacIntosh Sports Medicine Clinic. (As for the other extreme, Dr. Cohen says it's probably best to save the hot compresses for loosening up chronically stiff joints or muscles before exercise.)
The only significant downside to an ice bath after working out, chattering teeth aside, is the possibility of tissue damage if you push the temperature too low - less than about 5 C.
So if a weekly basketball game leaves you sore the next day, try sitting in a bathtub of cold water right after the game. If it makes you feel better, stick with it.
Alex Hutchinson is a former member of Canada's long-distance running team and has a PhD in physics.
Serious scientists disagree on this one. For my part, I find that after a run, it feels good to go splash around in a cool pool for about 15-20 mins. No serious swimming, just playing around to cool off the legs. Then, I hit the hot jacuzzi for about the same time and use the jets to work on my legs. It feels good so I assume its beneficial. "If it feels good, do it. "
This is why physiologist, biologist etc do not regard exercise physiologist as real scienctists they are quoted saying foolish things like "the microtears are what stimulate new muscle growth" and the whole wrining of the sponge forcing toxins out. What a load of crap. Dr. Wells should have his degreee revoked.
The effects of multiple cold water immersions on indices of muscle damage
Stuart Goodall 1 and Glyn Howatson 2
1 Centre for Sports Medicine and Human Performance, School of Sport & Education, Brunel University, Uxbridge, UK
2 School of Human Sciences, St Mary’s University College, Twickenham, UK
Abstract
The aim of this investigation was to elucidate the efficacy of
repeated cold water immersions (CWI) in the recovery of exercise
induced muscle damage. A randomised group consisting of
eighteen males, mean ± s age, height and body mass were 24 ± 5
years, 1.82 ± 0.06 m and 85.7 ± 16.6 kg respectively, completed
a bout of 100 drop jumps. Following the bout of damaging
exercise, participants were randomly but equally assigned to
either a 12 min CWI (15 ± 1 °C; n = 9) group who experienced
immersions immediately post-exercise and every 24 h thereafter
for the following 3 days, or a control group (no treatment; n =
9). Maximal voluntary contraction (MVC) of the knee extensors,
creatine kinase activity (CK), muscle soreness (DOMS), range
of motion (ROM) and limb girth were measured pre-exercise
and then for the following 96 h at 24 h increments. In addition
MVC was also recorded immediately post-exercise. Significant
time effects were seen for MVC, CK, DOMS and limb girth (p ``
0.05) indicating muscle damage was evident, however there was
no group effect or interaction observed showing that CWI did
not attenuate any of the dependent variables (p %% 0.05). These
results suggest that repeated CWI do not enhance recovery from
a bout of damaging eccentric contractions.
Key words: Eccentric exercise, treatment, cryotherapy.
People talk about inflammation as something that needs to be avoided, but I always thought it was a part of the healing process. Why would you want to reduce inflammation?
I think I have the answer to the question about ice baths.
Cool or cold water immersion for a short time helps reduce core temperature after a race or hard workout. This can greatly increase recovery time if done correctly.
You should not have the water so cold that you shiver either during or after immersion, what I do is to simply cool off. It's not a masochistic thing, no need to torture yourself with the cold.
No pseudo-scientific blather from me. I agree with noname that there is far too BS bandied about in the name of sports science.
noname wrote:
So by your logic we should never have to take any medicine, certainly don’t need to because the human body heals as quick as possible. I am sure after you reread your post you will recognize how foolish it is. Ice, aspirin, and many other interventions slow and reduce inflammation and speed recovery. It’s a fact it is not something that is debatable. Now all the particular molecular signaling events etc are still being teased out but there is not debate, ice works.
The fact that people depend on medication so much is a clear reason why Africans with no medication over the years excell farther than Americans in running. The fact that their bodies evolved without the use of 10,000 different drugs used over the generations is pretty evident.
Ice Baths may be good enough for American pros but how many African/Eithopian depend on them?
Also how many African and Eithopian runners depend on numerous other drugs that Americans have readily avavible for so long now?
All I know is that ice baths help me recover after workouts, and also I feel good in a workout or race if I've had an ice bath the night before.
I think that while in the ice bath, the blood vessels and capillaries in the legs constrict, and also more blood is sent to the surface of the legs to deal with the cold. Then when you get out of the ice bath, the vessels and capillaries open up wide, allowing "fresh" blood to enter the muscles and clear out whatever was left from the workout (I don't pretend to know what, maybe some leftover acidic H+ ions). Again, all I know is that they aren't dangerous and they do help me recover very well.
Yes, clearly medicine has been bad for Americans, whereas the the lack of good medicine -- which is most severe among world class African runners -- has been a great boon to those who benefit from it. Medicine is worse for distance runners than for gymnasts, swimmers, throwers, or women in labor, however.
Considering that nations go to war over water and that many agricultural operations in the Western U.S. face major shortages, wasting that much water for an unproven (and certainly unnecessary) technique seems to be unbelievably self-indulgent...
FYI, there are no solid studies that proves that submerging your entire legs in cold water or ice water provides any benefits. To date, it is all based upon empirical evidence.
And regarding inflammation, since our existence, our bodies have done a marvelous job dealing with minor inflammation from running. The human body knows exactly what to do and does it better than any pill or ice pack. [In this case, better does not necessarily mean faster]
On the other hand, once the inflammation is beyond minor, and the athlete does not wish to take a lay off to heal, ice and an anti-inflammatory will speed recovery.
Inflammation is one of the bodies' initial healing processes.