To the Lydiardites, why am I slower?

thanks for the input guys, I'll repost after a light weeks worth of intervals and a race this weekend...

OK guys, I cut back ran light the whole week consisting of

Monday: 30 minutes light swim in pool

Tuesday: 12 x 200m at 35 with 200m float

Wednesday: 45 minutes easy

Thursday: 5 x 1200m at tempo with 1:1 rest

Friday: 30 minutes easy

Saturday: 20-25 minutes easy + striders

Sunday: 8K RACE 28:05, flat (my PR is 26:37)

and I ran one of my slowest performances of the season...any thoughts? I am about 90 seconds slower in the 8K than a year ago and its really getting to me. I'll answer any specific training questions

The intervals are way to fast. 35 second 200 is 4:40 mile pace. You are racing at just under 5:40 per mile. Cut way back on the intervals and let your legs recover. Why do you need two interval workouts and a race all in one week?

Well in terms of interval workouts the second one is not an interval workout pending your definition of intervals. If you refer to an interval as Jack Daniels does then its nothing of the sort. Its a cruise intervals workout which is classified as a tempo workout. But you think all of my interval workouts should be geared no faster than race pace? I don't know many coaches that advocate all workouts being the same pace regardless of interval distance. I mean I could be wrong but I'm curious if anyone else feels that all intervals should be at established race pace.

You may think you are running Lydiard but you are not!

Most of the other posters on this forum covered it.

With Lydiard it is very specific.

Build miles 3-4 months (NO SPEED...NO RACING)

Hills for 1-2 months (NO SPEED...NO RACING)

Early intervals for 1 month (NO RACING)

Sharpening and racing for as long as you can go. Mileage cut way way back. (BEGIN RACING)

You followed some bastardized version of Lydiard. If Lydiard were still alive he would not recognize your program as anything he developed. Too late. Start over after whatever racing season you are into. In the meantime, just cut your miles big time, do some light striding and race. Lydiard trained runners were often running about 25-30% of their peak miles once they started racing.

I don't agree, it's not too late for him. Runit is just tired, he just needs to learn how to back off. He has basic fitness, but cannot translate it into race performance because of this fatigue.

Runit wrote:

I averaged high 70s this summer with a high of 95. Now I'm doing about 45 mpw

45 miles a week? In October? I don't think my mileage ever got that low under the Lydiard system, even the week of Nationals. You are losing fitness weekly, with that low mileage. What the hell are you thinking?

I'm gonna have fun with this one...

With Lydiard it is very specific.

Build miles 3-4 months (NO SPEED...NO RACING) - Nailed that one perfectly, that is what I did

Hills for 1-2 months (NO SPEED...NO RACING) -

Mark Wetmore and Joe Newton both don't have a hills phase but are considered avid followers of Lydiard. I DID HILLS about a months work

Early intervals for 1 month (NO RACING) - OK I raced during this by mandates from my coach and the team. Its college cross country, whadaya want?

Sharpening and racing for as long as you can go. Mileage cut way way back. (BEGIN RACING) - This is where I am now and am upset with results

According to Lydiard you cannot continue aerobic development while simultaneously doing hard anaerobic work so I dropped down my mileage to about 50mpw starting in September. AND as far as its concerned his numbers are what people get too caught up in. 80mpw..100mpw....150mpw....its all relative and can all be considered Lydiard. Its the system now the number. And while I was only doing 50mpw my Sunday runs were still around 15 miles and slowly decreasing to now I'm doing about 8 miles this Sunday with my big race 6 days away...

By the way, I want to say thanks so far to anyone who's posted on this thread. And any response I give is not meant to sound harsh but just what i believe to be the truth. Its just hard when you're a minute behind guys that you beat a year ago...

Same comment. You have two interval sessions and a race there. Lydiard's line about not being able to train hard and race simultaneously would still have to be my answer.

I'd do something at this stage like:

Mon. 90 minutes

Tu. 45 minutes

Wed.60-75 minutes with some fast relaxed strides

Thu. 60 minutes

Fri. 45

Sat. 20-30

I would not do any repetiton work, tempo runs or time trials at this stage. They'll add nothing at this point in the season and if they have any effect they'll tire you.

For what it's worth.

I think the second workout (5x1000) could have been dropped altogether. At this point in your season tempo run type workouts probably are not necessary. The 12x200 seemed a little fast to me (I could be wrong), especially for some one who may be overtrained. As other posters have stated, back off for a few weeks and let your muscles recover. You may surprise yourself and run a fast race.

HRE,

ok....I've got 11 days until regionals... so in 11 days I need to be as good as a possibly can salvage for my team. I know that in a year or so it will start paying off but right now i need to try to salvage my over training the best way possible. How would you break down the next 11 days?

Hi

This is what I would say as, you have ten days left it is time to get fresh and sharp. In my mind what that amounts to is doing something like this depending on what you can take as a runner.

Seven days out do a long run, 120 easy very easy. You should feel like you have got in a good run. Lungs are open and have been worked and your fit.

Monday-Wensday-Friday

1 or 2 runs of 45 mins,

Runs under 30 mins are not going to do much for you. And runs over 60 mins at this point are not a good idea. Do not cut your milage down more then 10-15. Do one run in the AM see how you feel if you need one more run to relax or get your legs under you do it. If you feel like hell skip the run later that day.

Now the about 5 days till your big race head down to the track. Yes that is right the track and run a two mile at about 90% like this. 50m hard sprint, 50m relaxed. If you can only do this for a mile fine. This workout is going to be good and hard, well get you ready for what your going to feel when you race but it is not going to kill your legs. Lyiard called shaperners, just rember sprint stride spirnt.

Then just give it your best come race day.

120 minutes? that seems a little long, I haven't dont more than 100 in a month

your aerobic foundation is dried up.

THe mileage has been cut for far too long (ex: your drop to 45mpw). Simultaneously, the long dropped ("haven't gone past 100min for a month).

Your body is responding to the stimulus you are giving it. It sense a drop in aerobic work, so that's what it is doing.

You have to maintain what you built up. 20-30min runs don't cut it.

Yes I know Lydiard's boys used to cut the mileage back big time during the season. But you have to realize that:

a. it was the norm for back then

b. they were peaking for ONE big race. the racing season wasn't as long, therefore they didn't have to sustain race shape as long.

c. They had a much much bigger aerobic base than you do. Months and months of 100+mpw, not just a summer.

d. Even during the "anaerobic" phase the weekly long runs were kept at 90-120min.

e. During hte early peaking phase there was still 90+min l0ong runs, 60min runs, and 60min fartleks. All aerobic stimulus.

My advice for 11 days out:

As soon as possible do a threshold(tempo run) at TRUE threshold. A moderately hard run of 30min to try and reboot the aerobic system. OR a moderatley hard 8 miler at about marathon pace.

Ok, let's count back. I'd say you don't want to do more than 20-30 minutes on the last two days. That leaves nine days. So I'd do something like

Day 1 60-75 minutes

Day 2 same

Day 3 50-60

Day 4 90-95

Day 6 60 with some strides.

Day 7 50-60

Day 8 45-50 with some light strides

Days 9-10 as above.

Don't feel confined to any pace, i.e. don't push to a pace but don't feel like you have to jog. But when in doubt go easier rather than harder. That's because the assumprtion here is that you're at the far end of your tether and are trying to rejuvenate.

I've had other runners do this over the years and it's worked pretty well. I've had some of them doing more miles than I'm suggesting here because that was back in the days when people did more miles. I'm not sure what your tolerance for or adaption to mileage is so I'm going conservative from my perspective. But maybe even this seems like a lot of running to you and if so, knock off whatever you need to from each run so that you'll feel comfortable. The idea is to stay away from anaerobic running, but it isn't time to pile on the miles either. We're trying to have you rested and recharged and doing a record number of miles won't get you there either. So the key is modest amounts of aerobic running. The one run I wouldn't shorten is that 90-95 minute one. In fact, if you're ok going to that 100 you mention it would be ok too.

im not criticizing here, just wondering..

why would you suggest he does this kind of milage the week before his peak race? i always understood the week before the peak race to be very light and easy milage wise with some fast track work to sharpen?

can you explain your thinking

I just have to ask what is it you feel during a race now? How does that compare to what you felt like when you were PRing last year or whenever?

If you're dying at the end then I would point my finger at your aerobic ability. If you just feel like shit the whole way then I'd follow suit with many posters that you are basically training through meets.

My suggestion... If you are going to do multiple workouts per week then fluctuate your intensities more. After a hard day do an easy distance run (whatever feels good, go slower), then do a moderate run the next day, before doing another hard workout on the track. This gives your body time to recover and utilizes different energetic systems in a sense on alternating days. You have to be pretty good at what you're doing to do hard easy hard easy hard easy like you are. If you were a 23 or 24 8k runner I might thing you could handle that for awhile with maybe a race thrown in but not at your level when I assume the volume was new too. It takes time. Its not always a one season thing. I do agree that what you're doing now will make you better down the road if you ever recover completely.