Millrose 83 Boys HS Mile

Mrr82 wrote:

Stahr predicted sub 4 for this race?? The announcer said a 58.6 wasnt to fast for the first 440?? If this stuff was said today Stahr and the announcers would be getting ripped all over letsrun for being arrogant and for not knowing anything about their sport. Its actually quite sad to watch this video...

Well, I can understand what you are saying here but it was a valid goal at the time. My workouts indicated that I could actually break 4 minutes and if the pace actually was pushed to the 3/4 I think it would have been possible. Some, like Mrr82, may not agree but I would say that he or she was not on my team seeing what I was actually doing. It was a long shot but what was actually said by me was: "I would love to break 4" not "I'm going to break 4" If you know anything about the media you know that they will twist the truth in order to generate interest. This is what was done here. So, I'm kind of wondering why you are "sad" watching that race. There were some great runners in the mix and it was exciting and fun. That's really all it was. So why "sad" as an emotion?

nuge wrote:

saw mike stahr develop at carmel h.s. in new york, he raced weekly against my younger brother.

as a h.s. frosh stahr would run the first 440 of a mile in 61, then die badly, finishing last.

as a soph he'd go through 880 in 2:02 then die badly usually finishing in the top five.

as a junior he'd run the three quarters in about 3:05 then hold on for dear life, and never lost.

by senior year it was lights out, four laps at that pace.

a great hs, college, and open competitor he was.

Too funny - I did go out fast and faded but not to last... I was actually call the "rabbit" for a long time. That was okay because it built a "killer instinct" which I don't see as much these days. In any case it worked for me.

Mrr82 wrote:

nuge wrote:

by senior year it was lights out, four laps at that pace..

Or go out at 58.6 on a tiny indoor track....sounds like either this kid never learned his lesson all 4 years..or his coach didnt know better....obviously extremely talented...but what you are describing is ridiculous.

Well, many would say this is ridiculous but is it really? What is ridiculous is that our Olympic trials 1500m finals is a jog-in-the-park with a big sprint at the end. I commend Alan Webb in the last trials for - what it looked like to me - saying "that's it - forget this I'm going to race like a pro!" and taking off and winning with an Olympic qualifying time. Why do you think American middle distance runners are not winning Olympic medals? In my opinion one of the reasons is because of this attitude - "Go out with the pack. Don't push the pace. Just go for the win..., etc., etc., etc. When are American milers (runners) going to learn that this is not the way to race? Yes, I didn't make the Olympic team but it wasn't because I shouldn't have. There are many factors involved when you get to that level and I, unfortunately, got hurt at the worse time or simply made the wrong choices.

Maybe going "crazy" (as Mrr82 is suggesting) from the gun is ridiculous but so is sitting in the pack and not taking control over the outcome of the race - your race – your destiny. I was a miler with very quick 400 speed (47 HS, 45 college) and, yes, if I wanted to jog for 3/4 of a mile and take the race in the last 400/200 I was probably going to win - but what is the glory in that? Is a 4:20 win in a mile race worth it when the people you are racing can run 4:10? No - In my opinion. The bottom line is that I would have not run as fast of times as I had if I only went for the win and not the time. Example: In my junior year I ran 3:46.99 to win the Junior nationals. If the race would have gone faster then I would have gone faster. The point is that I didn't sit in the pack and wait until the last 400 to sprint and win - I pushed the pace and, basically, ran alone until the last 400 when someone passed me and I had to fight to get the lead back. If I would have stayed in 2nd place the entire race and sprinted the last 200 I would have probably won (based on my 200 and 400 speed) but would not have run as fast. So, is that ridiculous? I don't think so.

I was quoted once in HS for saying that "It didn't matter to me if I won a race as long as I got my PR in it" - man, was I ostracized for that statement... Of course I wanted to win all the time but I also understood that I would lose races from time to time and that the more important thing was that I continued to improve - and the best way for me to do that was to run hard from the front. If someone was going to beat me then they would have to want to hurt and fight harder than I was willing to. If I lost a race but got my PR then I was (basically) happy - not really but for the most part I was, but if I lost a race and didn't get a PR then I was ready to - well, you know what I was...

Mrr82, you say that "... either this kid never learned his lesson all 4 years...or his coach didn’t know better" - well, my coach did know better and didn't want me to keep going "nuts" by pushing the pace – until I was a Senior and he realized that maybe I had it right. The problem was that his athlete wouldn't give up - wouldn't give in - wouldn't let a race be a pathetic jog and sprint - he had a stubborn HS runner on his hands and did the best that he could. Coach Collins was an amazing sprinter in his day and a great coach – have some integrity and don't disrespect someone you have no knowledge about. My question to you is where are you getting your knowledge? Were you an outstanding athlete or an outstanding coach that has experience in judging such racing techniques or are you just on the site to generate conflict? I have nothing against you but you seem to lash out at my HS style of racing for some reason. Your comment above is based on what "nuge" said but he/she is right - I didn't lose a race my Junior and Senior year (except for XC states and one 1000m race against Miles Irish during indoors) - If you look at the paper version of this then I would say that I did the right thing...

By the way, I remember the '83 Millrose race very well and I recall that I wasn't tired at all at 58.6 and would have kept on pushing if need be - maybe I would not have broken 4 but I would have come pretty darn close to it if Miles or John would have passed me and pushed the pace. In any case, you are not contributing anything by putting down the efforts of a HS runner doing what was successful for him at the time. If I would not have had the record that I did have by the time my career had ended then I would say you have a point but considering my “track record” I would say that your opinion is in need of some reevaluation.

To the rest of the poster and reader I’m sorry for such a long response but it is what it is.

I would like to thank all of you who had such nice things to say - it was really great to read such great comments!

FYI - if you want to see what I was doing as workouts in HS then you can view these at the following address:

- just select the year and month you want to see and you'll get my running log at the time.

Mike

I'm an idiot for knowing pretty much nothing about the track world and my only goal in life is to try and make trouble by writing stupid comments on letsrun.com. If I had a life I might try and say something positive but that would mean I would have no purpose in life.

Mrr82  wrote:

I'm an idiot for knowing pretty much nothing about the track world and my only goal in life is to try and make trouble by writing stupid comments on letsrun.com. If I had a life I might try and say something positive but that would mean I would have no purpose in life.

wow man you're on a roll

This is a long shot, but I'll throw it out there. In 1883-84, I met a very young soldier on a US Army post in Korea who told me that he had run a "4:08" in high school the year before. When I asked, "What, in the marathon?" he said, "No, the mile." He then explained he'd been the third fastest in the country his senior year, but after getting his girlfriend pregnant he had married her and joined the Army.

The guy was in fact plenty fast, but I've long since forgotten his name. He was a white kid, who if I remember correctly was from the NYC/Long Island area. Somebody who reads this thread might be able to confirm or add to this story.

twinkle,twinkle little STAHR

so whats the rule on pushing past people like mike does when people try to pass him?

is this a good tactic? anyone have any personal stories using this tactic?

say what wrote:

so whats the rule on pushing past people like mike does when people try to pass him?

is this a good tactic? anyone have any personal stories using this tactic?

Well, I know it's hard to see but what actually happened was that when John started to pass me I accelerated to his speed. He then put his elbow to my neck and was pushing me back (if you watch the video you'll see that) - my reaction was to push him out. He also wasn't in front of me at the time so no problem with the push.

Mrr82 wrote:

Stahr predicted sub 4 for this race?? The announcer said a 58.6 wasnt to fast for the first 440?? If this stuff was said today Stahr and the announcers would be getting ripped all over letsrun for being arrogant and for not knowing anything about their sport. Its actually quite sad to watch this video...

You can be excused for not being around for the buildup to this race and this indoor and outdoor season. I am about Stahr's age and there was a profile on him and Miles Irish I think (maybe Carlotti too) in RUNNER magazine. It was a big deal.

They were all discussing the feasibility of a sub-4:00 mile that season, maybe a sub-4 at Millrose. Of course, once I got older I realized how hard that would be on that track.

But they had the speed to go sub-4:00. Several of those guys did.

Mike,

It is too bad that some people who weren't even around at the time (or don't know their track history) can't appreciate how good you were and how good the crop of HS runners were then.

'83-'84 was kind of the end of the line for those HS'ers who weren't babied and allowed to run once a day and 20-30 miles a week. Many who graduated from '85 to about '97 will attest to this.

You shouldn't have to defend yourself against a "push" or a fast early pace or any of that BS. If these turds knew much about you at all they would crap their pants.

I graduated in '85 and your junior-senior years and goals were an inspiration to this 4:15 miler.

Thanks for the links to the site also, I will have to check that out.

Thank you. That was nice of you to say.

There were some great runners during that time which only helped each of us get better.

Thanks, again.

Mike? Unbelievable stuff back then. The only thing I would actually question is that I did read your log starting with around early January, and I am wondering what workout or workouts you are referring to that would indicate even the 4:11 that you ran? Or year before , maybe it was? When you ran 4:13 there?

I see a lot of 25-30 mile weeks? The one year, with a 2:01 800 and a 56 second 400 leg?

Not the stuff that would indicate where you got to in less than 5 weeks later? I may have the years mixed up, but even when you ran the 4:13? I read the training and was shocked.

You'll see in my log that I didn't actually record all my interval times or the rest (which I wish I had.) I also didn't record the "other" stuff I was doing like "coes", weights, etc. I remember doing a lot of sprints and fartlek that I, also, didn't record. It's a shame that I didn't but I'm just glad I had done most of the recording. You'll also see that many times I didn't even record what the meet name was. Sad, I know...

You're correct that I was a very low distance guy. I guess I would have been a little better off if I would have moved it up to the 50/week but I was doing well and what's not broke don't fix...

The 2:01 and 56 splits are slow ones, yes - but there are much faster ones in there too.

Don't forget the power of will. I truly hated to lose.

who is mike stahr???? Never heard of this guy. why is there a thread about him...which he probably started. This guy never did anything in college...how many olympic teams did he make??? oh wait zero. There's about 20 kids graduating this year with much more talent then this guy. Actually one or two girls that would give him a run for his money back in 83. Lets end this thread and stop letting some washed up, old fart relive what he calls his glory days....and i don't eve think they were glory days...his times were slghtly above average. Please go away mike stahr

i'm an asshole wrote:

who is mike stahr???? ....and i don't eve think they were glory days...his times were slghtly above average. Please go away mike stahr

Great race Mike! Too bad "I'm an a-hole" has to live up to his name and try and wreck the thread with his post above. I've never seen a race with surges like that. ON those tight indoor tracks it takes a lot of energy to pass so holding on to lane 1 is a great strategy.

Did you ever race against Marc Oleson from Canada? HE graduated the same year as you and I think ran a sub 4min for the mile. a 4:10 tactical mile is great on an indoor track for a highschooler.

I'm sorry - I was only kidding.

“The announcer said a 58.6 wasnt to fast for the first 440?? If this stuff was said today Stahr and the announcers would be getting ripped all over letsrun for being arrogant and for not knowing anything about their sport.”

Was said by Frank Shorter … Let the ripping begin