Note to Collegians (and mainly their selfish coaches)Running WJrs - This isn't a free vacation- you are representing USA

10 lapper,

Firstly it is track and field, not just "distance running." Secondly, when a student-athlete receives approximately $60,000 in education, and another $25,000 in equipment and travel expenses over 4 years paid for by their university, you can be sure they are representing their university first and not their country.

Given the choice:

A roof over your head, all of your meals, all of your eqipment, all of your education, and all of your coaching taken care of for 4 years in the US. At the end of which you will have a college degree ...

OR

Doing it any other way in any other country.......

You choose.

Yup, poor Johnny US distance runner just got flown to China and treated like a celebrity, experiencing a very good trial run for the Olympics in 2 years. Poor Johnny US distance runner didn't make the finals. But Poor Johnny US distance runner is flying back to the US for an all expense paid 4 years of college where he will be taken care of and live a great life. Perhaps a much better life than some 13 low 5k guy from anywhere else in the world.

So if myopia leads you to judge based on a poor performance at World Junior Championships, then so be it. I will tell you you are 100% correct. But I'll choose to look at the entire picture and be satisfied!

Here's some substance. If your trying to "peak" for certain races then you probably are not training hard enough. Many of the Junior athletes simply do not know what hard training is yet. They average 50 miles a week and do little or no threshold runs, then rely on speed training to sharpen them for the championship part of the season. The fact is, if you want to run well at three or four championship races per year, you must average higher mileage and be able to do longer threshold runs. You also must race less, focusing on only important qualifying races, so you can devote more time to training and less time to tapering for meaningless races. If you are averaging 100 miles per week, you don't necessarily have to peak, because you should be in peak shape 80 percent of the year.

Most high school coaches have not realized this yet. They think that high mileage will cause burn out. This may be true for athletes the don't truly love the sport, who easily get board and are not wholly committed to developing their talent. That's the reality though. If you want to be good, you have to develop your strength to a point that you can run a decent race at any time during the year.

Come on guys, this is ridiculous. I will admit right now that by no means am I a World Class runner. I have good times, but not great times. I have excelled at state levels, but not international levels. Do all of us at some point in our running careers not dream of Olympic gold, World Titles and all of the recognition that comes along with it. These individuals have been blessed with the ability to train and race at levels most of us can only dream of. You do not qualify for the World Championships by sitting on your couch drinking beer. You qualify by running in the blistering heat, snow storms, and all other scenarios where everyone else is sitting at home. These guys trained very hard to advance to that level of competition. Albeit they may not have had great races, but they deserve to be there. None of us could do any better or we would be there right now competing for the World Championship. Lets back off of these guys and let them enjoy their time in the sun, because they qualified and we didn't.

Shoot guys, I have an idea. Maybe, just maybe, the heats went out quick(they were won in what? 8:30's or 8:20's) so the kid goes out, tries to stay in it because, hell, it is his only chance at finals, but he bombs hard. That is better than running a 9:00 by staying in the back and never trying to make finals.

The dyestat descriptions don't say anything about how the guy who ran 9:51 paced himself, but in the other heat, the other guy "was 17th of 17 after two laps but moved up to finish 14th in 9:24.10."

Interesting discussion - a little too harsh at times I'll adnit. There are a number of issues here, most of which aren't anyone's fault, it's just the way that it is. 10-lapper is right in that in the best case scenario athletes would be preparing for international competition (as other countries do) - and certainly for the sprinters/jumpers/throwers being prepared in August shouldn't be a big problem as they don't have a competitive season immediately following. The middle-distance and distance athletes (and their respective coaches) are the ones who face a dilemma. It's like cross-country, worlds are always in the spring (usually late March) so preparing for this, and the outdoor season to follow would indicate that putting in a base over the winter, as opposed to the summer, would be the appropriate thing to do. But those in the southern continents whose seasons differ have to adapt as best they can - even though this isn't right according to their seasonal calendar, at least if they are preparing for what are "European"-defined championship seasons. So too with the American seasonal calendar - Cross-country in North America is an autumn endeavour. There is good reason for this given the harsh winters that the north and north-east face each year. This means that coaches need to be adaptive and creative if both international meets and their domestic calendars are to be prepared for - and the International meets only include a small number of athletes anyway. What is unfortunate is the possibility of throwing this opportunity (competing internationally) away for the few who can qualify, for the sake of an overall program - that I think is unfortunate, and frankly poor coaching ability.

Some coaches (Warhurst at Michigan comes to mind) seem - perhaps because they have a number of foreigners (Sullivan, Willis, Brannen, Woods, etc. for example)- to encourage this participation even if this might impair their programs at times, because this is what is best for the exceptional athlete. Few college coaches seem to be in this position however, and so they might not understand the benefits which might be accrued - like being able to recruit because they have athletes good enough to compete internationally.

As to the case mentioned at the beginning of this thread (Steeplers), the unfortunate problem in trying to do both - prepare for cross and international track at the same time - is that some sacrifices may need to be made (i.e. red-shirting), but that is the sole purview of the specific coach and athlete. Obviously few of the best (from what I see) are even lining up to make these teams - where are all the top high school kids at the qualifying meets?, at least those HS Juniors who might still do well. Perhaps this is as much an indictment of the U.S. high school process that too often mimics the colleges, with little reason to do so. Then, and only then (as it is in club-dominated Canada),would there become an expectation that representation internationally for junior distance runners becomes the norm, rather than isolated goals from specific coaches. I get rather bemused at the suggestion that this summer base (for HS) is so important that it might preclude better competitive opportunities for the serious and or gifted. It might even seem (excepting Ritz and Tegencamp) that Footlocker XC is more important than world XC for juniors, at least that is almost my impression from Dyestat - as there should be literally thousands trying out for US cross nationals every year, something that just doesn't seem to happen!

To the person who began this thread - if you have such a problem with poor performances, please contact USATF (in particular Craig Masback) and ask them to ensure (as some other countries do) that preparation plans are submitted to the association for ALL athletes so that it can be determined that the athletes are being properly prepared for these international meets. I'm sure that this would go over very well with the (usually college coaches) existing coaching fraternity! He (Masback) would likely reply that as long as athletes qualify (by time performance) for the meet that the "past the post" system (which exists for most trials in the U.S) is simply what is going to happen. His hands are tied by that, and the lawsuits that would follow if he arbritrarily decided that unless one PRed or medalled at these meets that participation was going to challenged by message-boarders! I do sympathise with the idea that these athletes MIGHT not have been prepared to the utmost - but again, until you change the idealogy - that this is what ALL top athletes (and coaches/programs) should aspire, then this is going to continue to happen - or don't send anyone at all. Look at Bumbalough - he didn't win, so I'm sure there are many that will criticize coach Helmer for allowing him to go, as this will surely affect his cross-country season! Especially if he doesn't red-shirt him - of course that's his decision, not yours.

The guy who ran 9:24 ran 9:20 at the Big East Champs and has a PR of 9:05...so it's not like he's jogging. So you expect him to peak in August after already peaking in May and training through the midwest summer? Good luck with that.

Alan

Ok, I admit the misspelling of embarrassed was just a mistake. However, the you're in my name, when obviously I mean your, is just my lame attempt at sarcasm.

How many times has this happened at the world championships at the professional level. Ritz, Robison, Webb,...

There are so many athletes that qualify months in advance, then when it is time to race are either injured, or not in shape but run anyway.

ever consider they tried to qualify for the finals?? If your PR is 9:05 and try to run with a pack that is going 8:30 you might just crash and burn... but on the off chance they are feeling it maybe they get pulled along to an 8:45 and sneak into the final... my point is that if either of these kids had run 9:00 it would have been no more of a success in terms of the competition... they are there to compete not run PR's, and if they bomb going for it... kudos

Man, they've had a very long season and 9:24 is only about 12 seconds off what he ran at nationals.

disgustedtrackfan wrote:

I stil don't think you get it. The college coach is being selfish. He's having the kid run juniors so he can brag about it in the media guide or to recruits, yet he doesn't have him ready to go. If you are going to run juniors, you need to be prepared to redshirt the next xc season or don't go.

I don't think YOU get it. These kids that go are not being "forced to go" by selfish coaches, believe it or not...but they actually LIKE the free trip and accomodations. These kids worked hard during THEIR peak season, and qualified and made it in.

Now, the fact that the meet is in late august is unfortunate, because as other posters have said, we train and race in the collegiate system. But believe me...the coaches would probably rather have their athletes NOT go so that they could run well in xc. But they know that the kids worked hard, and they let them go because the kids WANT to go, and they deserved it.

Maybe they've never woken up on the opposite side of the globe and been expected to race hard. Gotta throw their systems off some.

And the 9:51 kid has a best of at least 9:06. Maybe he fell. I dunno, I wasn't there, and I doubt you were too.

It surely not about being "forced to go" etc....it's about preparing for the actual event properly, not going as an after-thought to the college season. Something wrong with an athlete actually training for their nationals and hence world juniors? Surely not! A half-decent coach with the athlete's best interest at heart would surely follow that direction. Has to be more important than some school event. Don't care where the coach is employed. Has to be some responsibility somewhere rather than being tied by your bootstraps to a scholarship because you need to pay for your education. You can see the problems there developing athletes there before you even start with the system. As I said before, I'm not from the US so I come from a different culture. Just don't understand yours. Problem with the US, in regards to all sports (at least from my view from a long way away admittedly), it's too insular, too USA 'centric. They forget there's a big wide world out there that's much bigger and more important than themsleves (eg World Juniors, World XC, World Track & Field, International sport generally etc...bigger than college/HS sport).

Believe me, I'm sure a lot of college athletes wish we were on the same schedule as the european meets. Why would people who could compete at some of those meets in August peak in June? It's because people are on scholarships and on teams where people depend on them.

The reason why the U.S. is on such an early schedule is because of money and convenience. You have a better chance of getting people to go to your invites while in school. Well, at least that's my view from in the US collegiate system.

lastly, I don't buy the whole "the rest of the world cares only about representing their country."

The rest of the world, like everyone else chases the shoe contract and appearance fees. then, for a short period of time, the change into their national uniform. Those meets often fall in line with the European track season, during breaks, etc. Then they jump right back into racing weekly or twice weekly to pay the bills. The US collegiate systems just pays the bills while you are training.

Representing your country is a consequence of already being good.

Also, there must be some pretty special talent, and pretty special coaches who know a year or 6 mos in advance that they are going to qualify and make the team for the WJC. You make it sound like that is some easy task. At least in the US there is quite a bit of competition for those spots. I dare say no one set their training plan up around a mid August best performance of the year.

I'm done with this

I acknowledge all of the reasons how a collegiate system can impede on a Junior's athletic year and their non-patriotic goals.

However looking at the GB squad many of the team are not even at or near to college. A good few will remain eligible in 2 years time. Take Harry A-A (1st), Sian Edwards (6th), Asha Philip (4th), Jade Surman (6th) as examples.

We too in the UK have multiple peaks to make. I don't understand how a US coach can use this as an excuse. The international calendar never changes...Olympics every 4, WJC every 2, WXC every year, nationals etc etc.

Take GB distance runners:

February = Indoor Champs (for the 800 / 1500m runner / non-xc)

March = World XC Trials and / or English Schools

March = WXC (and / or World Students for freshmen)

July = English Schools and / or World Junior Trials

August = WJC (every 2 yrs) / European Juniors

November = Euro XC Trial

December = Euro XC

Nearly all of our leading juniors do manage to peak 3 times (with varying emphasis). You may argue that their talent enables this. But the Aussies also prove that it is possible to plan.

With the depth of the USA I cannot understand why you cannot find athletes of similar abilities? Or at least get an athlete to replicate the times at their trials on the World Stage (or do coaches peak athletes for nationals only?!). A lot of the GB athletes have produced PR's or close to at the WJC. The USA team is the opposite- some were not even close to PR shape.

Perhaps it maybe more than the inability to plan for the 2 seasons ahead. Maybe the team US preparations ahead of each championships are wrong? Do personal coaches travel with these athletes? Who oversees their training in the weeks preceding the champs? How many of these kids have travelled outside of the USA at all...used to eating carefully, being independent etc? I would expect that many of the athletes are too dependent and too used to running with their recognise HS / Collegiate squads. Do these athletes allow 'foreign' physio's or masseurs to treat? Are they used to living in the high-pressured environment and able to keep out of boredom.

Stop ranting about how things make preparations difficult, but how to overcome practically.

We have to pay for our university education here. There are no scholarships, facilities, full-time coaches, medical access. A lot of student athletes have part time jobs and volunteer coaches at home, and no training partners. Unless they attend one of a few recognised universities. Our degrees are only 3 years long, so far more intense than your freshman year (with the generic core modules). Everything to do with the training / competing in the US at college is provided on a plate from the entries, transport, accommodation etc.

Probably the difference is GB get a choice of what they train for and you can prepare in your own way, not try to pump yourself up every week (generalisation I know). The fact that you DON'T have scholarships makes that possible. The US, by being scholarshiped, they are tied to their bootstraps by the system. At the risk of being too general again, another difference may be too is the standard of coaching. While a few are certainly pretty good, many US college coaches, endurance-wise anyway, are still stuck in a time warp of the 60' & 70's and also tend to "drown" their athletes in overly hard work for the sake of their, their ego, and their college. Many who have gone to college from here have come back injured or burnt.