HADD rules
HADD rules
Pete, I am in my early to mid 40's and I'd appreciate seeing this. It looks very interesting as I am now at 60-70 MPW.
Pete - Not ripping on you by any means. There is a disconnect between your shorter distance times and marathon times - ie your marathon should be faster, imho. This would argue against you being optimally aerobically fit and efficient via the Hadd priciples. I of course dont know you so perhaps there are orthopedic hindrances etc when you get above 21K. Just thought I'd throw that out there. It may be that you need to do even more mileage.
D
But it's much harder to run your optimum marathon, and as it is he's close now- 1:14:58 means perhaps 2:38, and he's at 2:42.
Also, as a master, progress is slower, so give him a couple more years.
DoubleD wrote:There is a disconnect between your shorter distance times and marathon times - ie your marathon should be faster, imho. This would argue against you being optimally aerobically fit and efficient via the Hadd priciples. I of course dont know you so perhaps there are orthopedic hindrances etc when you get above 21K. Just thought I'd throw that out there. It may be that you need to do even more mileage.
D
No offence taken. All true, especially the marathon at 2:42, although my times fade a little from 3k and up I guess. (The HM just below 75 min isn't THAT much "worse" than the 3k/5k times)
I would agree that I could probably incorporate more mileage to get to MY optimum aerobic fitness.
I would counter, though, with the fact that I've had relatively fewer opportunities to race the longer distances, even good road 5k's.
Also, I believe I'm more suited to the shorter distances than the longer distances by virtue of having relatively more FT muscle fibre than the typical skinny distance runner type (I'm 5'7", 147 lb, was a wrestler in HS and university, boxer in grade school). I think that even when I reach my personal optimal aerobic fitness, my PR profile will still be "better" at the shorter distances .
One of the advantages of the Hadd approach is that the aerobic focus lets you be in shape for a fairly wide range of race distances. I PR's at 800m yesterday and I'm confident I could PR at 10,000 or the HM next weekend if a good race 9with good conditions) presented itself.
Anyway, your point was entirely valid. Just thought I'd offer that clarification/rebuttal.
Well, I've only been following it for about 15 weeks. So far, here's what I like:
I'm about 70-75 miles per week. This is a typical volume for me, but I feel like I'm recovering a lot faster and feel a lot better for each work out. In short, I think the base training Hadd recommends keeps me from killing myself on a given workout. It's been a much more comfortable ride, even when upping the miles.
I notice that my long run pace is a LOT faster than it used to be, and this despite no difference in perception of effort. Same with the threshold or marathon-pace runs or whatever Hadd actually calls them. Even in the hot conditions we've had lately, I can hit that pace and hold it a lot better than when I started. The pace is a lot faster as well.
As for the Hadd tests, I've come down 30 seconds per mile at each heart rate over the first 12 weeks of the program. How this translates to race performance, I don't know yet. My plan is to do Hadd base building only going in to a November marathon. If the Hadd test lets me know that my pace and perceived effort are where they need to be before then, I might throw in a few races. As others indicated, I'm finding that patience is a virtue with this training.
shaq -
Sounds like you're just like I am - speed type, low miles, and even the bad Achilles. First thing is to get your miles over 50 MPW and keep it there. Ideally under the Hadd idea, you can run a marathon at 90 percent of your max HR (average). I know there are 12-week marathon plans out there, but Hadd's really isn't one of them. To get to 90 percent HR for long tempo runs at marathon-pace or quicker can take several months. If you want to do a sort of Hadd program, what I'd do for now is:
- Keep your recovery runs dead easy three or four times a week (aim to stay under 70 percent HR max, even in the heat).
- Go longer and steady a couple times a week -- being careful to stay under the pace where you feel like you are building up any lactate. This will be way less than 90 percent HR, probably more like 80 percent to start with.
- Only slowly increase the length of the long run and don't 'taper' into it. I know lots of guys who take a day or two real short and easy beforehand so they can hammer their long run. It's OK to go into it a little tired already. It's more important to be fresh for the tempo runs. And any time you go beyond 2:15 or so, it might take an extra day or two of easy recovery running.
- Try to get to 70 MPW if you can and only if your Achilles can handle it.
Here's how I do in an ideal week a little over 70 MPW.
M - 12 with 10 steady a little slower than marathon pace
T - 5 to 7 AM, 5 to 7 PM
W - 8-10 easy
Th - Either same as Monday or shorter with tempo reps a little quicker than marathon pace
F - 5 AM, 5 PM
Sat - long run between 2 and 2:30
Sun - easy 6 or 8
Above all else keep your Achilles healthy.
By the way, what have you done to help your Achilles? I'm a firm opponent of the "immobilize it" school of Achilles treatment. I did strengthening exercises and lots of barefoot running as I came back, and still try to do some BF running a couple times a week. Also, I went away from motion control and stability shoes. So far so good, healthy for almost a year.
I can't believe that thread was deleted. I printed out the condensed version about 18 months ago. Still have it. It's a massive 30 pages.
Pete - in looking at your log - a 2:04 800 is outstanding for a masters guy as is 4:17 for 1500. (are you peter forde?) I agree - youre a middle distance guy but with great range even up to the marathon. Lydiard would be proud. I bet without the Hadd-style aerobic training, you wouldnt be near your higher distance times. Keep up the fine work. btw I am guessing you are canadian judging by referring to college as university.
Dr. Smith,
So what percentages on each day for that schedule? and should I just go off 220-age on my hr monitor or do a max test?
I saved the consolidated Hadd info on my webspace: http://www.cypressop.com/misc/Hadd%20Threads.htm
220-age doesn't work. By that I should be at 175, but I recently saw 195 at the end of a race.
Best way to find max, in my opinion, is to hop in a 5K. Do a good long full warm up, then run a steady, aggressive race (don't go out crazy or you'll fade and not reach max) and kick like hell.
Here's what a good week might look like. (Pete might have a better idea than me, as he seems to have really got this thing wired, so feel free to chime in, Pete. (By the way, nice race results above!)
M - 75-90 minutes with 60-70 minutes at 80 percent HR max, broken into 20-30 minute 'reps' if you want. (I find I need to use a 5 BPM range, say 153-157, and let the HR rise to 153 the first few miles and then try to keep it from creeping over the max number.)
T - 40 Min AM, 40-60 min PM, try to stay under 70 percent HR max
W - 60-75 min easy (under 70 percent)
Th - Same as Monday, or 3X15 minutes or so at 83-85 percent HR max, but only if it feels totally aerobic.
F - 40 AM 40-60 PM
Sat - 2 to 2:30 long run, run easy, but don't worry too much about a little cardiac drift. It seems very hard for us speed guys to keep the HR from slowly drifting up. Just try to minimize it.
Sun - 40-60 easy
Ideally, you'd lengthen, or reduce the breaks in, the workouts as you go along, then every six weeks or so bump up the range you are running in by about 5 BPM. The idea is to get to the point where the HR and pace are steady and you feel like you could run the whole blessed workout over again if you had to. Also, every four weeks or so reduce the mileage and workouts somewhat.
I'm having a few doubts about whether this is really the best approach with only 14 weeks. But on the other hand, more miles is probably the most important thing, and as others have said, you can run a lot of miles with this kind of approach.
Have you had decent results with other marathon training plans?
Dr. Smith/Pete,
Sop I went out to run my normal loop (usually takes about 40-45min) I stayed at 69% and ran 60 min!!! It was so slow. The thing is I just went off the 220-age.
I am 31 with a resting in the 30's. Is there any other way besides an all out 5k, I heard 2-3 min hill sprints x3?
Bump.
Dr. Smith,
I have never run a marathon and to be honest I would rather just start from scratch and build the best way possible. Any advice?
Other ways I've heard to estimate a max include the hill reps you mention, or run an all-out 800 with a short rest, then an all out 400. For me, neither of these is really long enough to get near my max, but I bet it will show you a higher number than 220-age.
And you probably will have to slow down a bit at first. Don't be a complete slave to the HRM at first, but make sure you always feel easy. The more you can stay under 70 percent or so, the quicker you'll recover and progress.
If you've already entered a marathon (if it's Chicago, for example), just get as many miles in in whatever way possible, staying healthy, and go ahead and run it. It'll give you a time to beat next time.
For a total Hadd marathon buildup for a speed guy, I think it goes something like this:
1. Work your way up to 50 MPW or more with a couple times a week at 90 minutes or more. When 90 minutes easy feels like 'nothing'
2. Start working in the long tempo runs, starting at about 80 percent. Slowly lengthen them and every six weeks or so, bump up the HR range, if it's feeling easy and steady. get your long runs up to 2-2:15.
3. Race once in a while to stay motivated
4. Once you are getting to about 90 percent HR for good long tempo runs and feel like you could run a marathon OK, start into a speed phase, with some track reps of 400 faster than 5K pace or 1200s at 5K pace and long reps/short tempos at 10K to half-marathon pace. To help keep the threshold up, maybe work in an hour at 80-85 percent HR in your long runs, which should be only around 1:45 at this point. Keep at this as long as you feel healthy and your short race times are improving.
5. A couple months before your marathon, switch back to workouts like you left off with in #2 above, except every other week run shorter tempo around half-m pace and lengthen the long run to 2-2:30 and keep up good weekly mileage until you're 10-14 days out.
If you have a goal marathon picked out, just do the best you can through the stuff above, putting the most emphasis on #2, the real base, maybe 8-12 weeks max in the speed phase, and 8 weeks in the post-speed phase.
Also, I'd really read through the Hadd "One Approach" thread to get more of the why and how of the base phase.
Bump up, good thread here!
So I'm injured, tweaked hamstring.
Three weeks ago ran this neighbourhood route in 44:18 @ 78% max HR, felt like a regular run for me. Today gingerly testing hamstring ran or wogged/jogged it in 58:40! HR 71% max. 128 bpm. Lacking aerobic fitness? Have been following MAF prog. but finding it unbearably slow going, 14 - 15 min/mile? Ignoring my max. HR & going by the 180 - age rule. At least hamstring held up just fine, will maintain this until it's healed up.
Do you know your true HR max? If not keep going as slow as you can so as you heal that hamstring. Once you feel you are ready to go do a true HR max test. This figure is very important.
I'm using 180 as my max. I did have a test 11 years ago.
I have kept in top shape since so I don't see it as having dropping...maybe a little...but going by how I feel now & how when I would run a few years ago the same HR would be evident....actually I'm wondering if 180 is my true MHR or could it be a few beats lower now.
bump