I am starting to see the basis for it, but very few people do it. Is it because it takes alot more time to get ready for races this way?
For a slow-twitch runner, it’s not going to make much difference.
Someone with more slow-twitch muscle fibers still has fast-twitch fibers that can be trained to be better. It's not like one person only has one or the other... A slow person can get faster in sprints, a sprinter can get better in distance events. They'll naturally be better at one or the other, but you can develop both people to improve at their weakness
Although the interviewer here doesn't really let him talk much, Centro would make an excellent coach and what he says is not summed up by the quote there. What he is saying is that you should touch on your 200 speed already in October for the outdoor track season, maybe once a week, building up from 6 to 10 x 200, with no concern to get short rests (he suggests 200 jog between) and no need to really push these. For the interviewer doing mile repeats in the 4:20s without good speed, he suggests starting out at 30-31, and says that is plenty fast because it is way ahead of his mile repeat pace, at low 4s, and then you can gradually drop a few seconds over a period of months. He also says that while some would think you'd burn out if you're hitting 25s already early, maybe you then add reps or shorten the rest. But the notion that if you lack speed, you can't build it is false. Even at my age, I saw a pretty rapid improvement in my current speed from doing 200 or 400 repeats, and that even on short rest (100j or 45 seconds on 16-20x400s), dropping ten seconds per 400m after only a few sessions.
thank you for clarifying the video, i think you summarized what he said perfectly. i do think the long rest bit that centro mentions is quite important though. (not to deny that what you were doing worked for you)
if you are a hard periodization guy (zero speed in base) your thesis statement is most likely along the lines of "mileage is the most important factor, and speed makes you tired and gets in the way of building mileage - i don't really disagree with this
my point is fast 200s at lets say mileish pace with long rest once a week or every other week are minimal load that do not meaningfully get in the way of aerobic development.
short rest 200s are a lot more load that will get in the way of building mileage. they provide more race-specific fitness gains but of course you do not need this when you are not actually racing.
early phase speed should be more "mechanical" than "fitness" ... so when you ARE targeting race specific fitness, you're not completely shocking the system when you go from jogging 9min miles infinitely to MD race paces.
16-20x400 @ threshold pace or slightly faster on short rests is an aerobic strength thing and extremely normal to be doing in year round these days. i think this is great too but not what centro is talking about.
i would never want an athlete to do 400s at mile pace in base. and also the modern strategy kinda says you don't need to do them even in competition phase.
I am starting to see the basis for it, but very few people do it. Is it because it takes alot more time to get ready for races this way?
Lydiard would have told you that the reason he had his people build their base was that it allowed them to do more and better fast work when the time came. Assuming that you're talking about developing the cardiovascular system when you talk about base building understand that ALL running does that to some degree. In the old days people trained much like you're suggesting, i.e., intervals and not much else right away and usually year round and they got more aerobically fit. But it's volume more than anything that builds your base and running hard much of the time limits how much you can run so, as you say, doing it that way is going to take more time. So if working on speed, which more accurately should be described as working on pace, takes longer to build your base the obvious question is why you'd want to do it?
We are tslking about speed here. Speed is not hammering intervals until you puke.
Don't you think those East African runners did a lotta sprinting when they were young? You know, like all good runners do?
We don't really know what they did. At some point they obviously start doing formal fast training but the general take on this has been that East Africans start "training" without knowing that's what they're doing because they have such an active way of life. As Lydiard said, they are building their base from the moment they can walk. Certainly they must do some sprinting but when it becomes formalized is not well known.
All healthy kids do this. It's normal child activity?
Lydiard would have told you that the reason he had his people build their base was that it allowed them to do more and better fast work when the time came. Assuming that you're talking about developing the cardiovascular system when you talk about base building understand that ALL running does that to some degree. In the old days people trained much like you're suggesting, i.e., intervals and not much else right away and usually year round and they got more aerobically fit. But it's volume more than anything that builds your base and running hard much of the time limits how much you can run so, as you say, doing it that way is going to take more time. So if working on speed, which more accurately should be described as working on pace, takes longer to build your base the obvious question is why you'd want to do it?
We are tslking about speed here. Speed is not hammering intervals until you puke.
It isn't clear to me what the OP means by building speed. In the sixty years I've been around the sport I've commonly seen people call any form of interval work, say from 800s down, speedwork. If the OP is using "speedwork" as you are then, sure, you'd want to do some of it when building a base. But you would not replace conventional base work, i.e., high volume, with that sort of running. It would be something you'd do a wee bit of after you'd got your miles in.
When I started running (aiming for a 3.15 marathon debut) (was a pan american/ pan pacs swimmer, who could run a 39 10K with no real run training, just run 5ks every day as fast as I could), I did that. The result? 1 peroneal stress fracture, one third metatarsal stress fracture, 5th metatarsal stress fracture, partially torn tibiotalatar ligament, shin splints.
Took me 9 months to start jogging a few times a day. After the fact i got a coach, built a real base, and eventually got down to a 2.25 marathon during my 40´s.
I believe Rosa and Tergat did an inverted pyramid where speed was focused on first block. Obviously your mileage may vary and applying a generic, broad question like OP did to hobby walkers and Olympians is banal. But then people couldn’t give blanket opinions on how you should train and the thread would die.
I would assume we are talking faster than mile pace when talking about “speedwork” so things like strides, short hill sprints, acceleration work etc. In that can you should be starting that in your base period.
When I started running (aiming for a 3.15 marathon debut) (was a pan american/ pan pacs swimmer, who could run a 39 10K with no real run training, just run 5ks every day as fast as I could), I did that. The result? 1 peroneal stress fracture, one third metatarsal stress fracture, 5th metatarsal stress fracture, partially torn tibiotalatar ligament, shin splints.
Took me 9 months to start jogging a few times a day. After the fact i got a coach, built a real base, and eventually got down to a 2.25 marathon during my 40´s.
DO NOT SKIP BASE
Someone used the term "Blanket Statements." Good one and way too easy to do on LRC, you and I could write books about it.
Where do I start? What are we talking about? Here is as close as I can come, even knowing that many will get very angry: There are a many coaches and scientists who agree that a person should start with speed similar to the type we did as kids (i.e.: baseball, basketball, football, soccer) Most of us did alot of that before we formally began to partake in "Athletics."
Yet let's take it a step further. You did all of that, and you begin by jogging 20 mpw until you get in decent shape, then you mix in a little bit of 400 type and 1000 type 'speed' work at the begining of XC. Of course this is not really sprinting.
*What a handful of coaches and scientists are starting to do is mix in 20s, 40s, 60s, and 80s at the beginning of any season. You might jog for the next two days, then repeat the stimulus as hills or perhaps longer stuff as in 200s, 300s, and 400s. But you take long breaks! And you also work with them on running form and explosive jumping of some kind. After they have done that pre-season work, then you begin the oldfashioned base-work but also throw in some 1000s or even longer interval training.*
When I started running (aiming for a 3.15 marathon debut) (was a pan american/ pan pacs swimmer, who could run a 39 10K with no real run training, just run 5ks every day as fast as I could), I did that. The result? 1 peroneal stress fracture, one third metatarsal stress fracture, 5th metatarsal stress fracture, partially torn tibiotalatar ligament, shin splints.
Took me 9 months to start jogging a few times a day. After the fact i got a coach, built a real base, and eventually got down to a 2.25 marathon during my 40´s.
DO NOT SKIP BASE
Your injury did not happen because you skipped base work. Your injury happened because you did not know what you were doing and over-trained. You would have been better off doing more variety.
Why do you think east africans dominate and US are so far behind? East africans concentrate on slow, easy miles, build the base. US is about running too fast and burning out in college
I just returned from a month in Kenya. There are seemly 100s of children in the area where I lived. I would go out on 60 minute runs up and down hills. The kids would start racing me, which was so much fun, but many of them were burners! That is where they start to get their speed development. Although it is true, they run many miles, the adults do not ever neglect the speed! Many run too much and do not have enough food. They deserve every medal they get and drug use is way overstated on LRC! The percentage of people who run there is very high!
That is because you don't understand the metaphor.
Strange that it "has nothing to do with running" when I read it in a book titled Run Fast.
The boats are your aerobic base.
If you try speedwork (firing a cannon)off a small aerobic base (canoe), you will capsize yourself and the canoe.
You need a bigger base, like a battleship, for firing cannons.
I understand your stupid metaphor but it still has nothing to do with running. By using that logic you can just run all base and you are good to go. That is not true.
That is because you don't understand the metaphor.
Strange that it "has nothing to do with running" when I read it in a book titled Run Fast.
The boats are your aerobic base.
If you try speedwork (firing a cannon)off a small aerobic base (canoe), you will capsize yourself and the canoe.
You need a bigger base, like a battleship, for firing cannons.
I understand your stupid metaphor but it still has nothing to do with running. By using that logic you can just run all base and you are good to go. That is not true.
No, you don't understand at all.
I never said don't fire the cannon, just don't do it off a canoe.
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