Canova Link to Current Italian Runners?

And Trackhead, the Japanese don't know how to get good 5-10,000m runners to run. Your Lydiard article says so, I would agree. For all the talk of excellent training in Japan (by marathon road runners of course) they aren't doing all that well in the track events given the potential they have. They know how to marathon, no doubt, but not 10,000m. It's not drugs, lack of talent, environment, social/ political climate....it is good ole fashion training methodology that is marathon focussed.

Ethiopia does not have that many top 200 best marathon times by the way. They have had great success in championships, but fast times NOT. Geb, Jifar...then it drops on the Marathon Guide top 200 many countries have far more runners on that list. They are track and x-c focussed compared to Japan or spain, Portugal....

8ball wrote:

It's a similar problem in the US. There is no high school link to the college the athlete goes to. The major college power houses should be in contact with the high school talent at least 2 years before they graduate. Or have 20-50 high schools matched with 2-5 colleges, so that there is continuity of communication and training. This I run 5 times a week 30 miles to doing doubles and 100 miles, makes no physiological sense. Do the college coaches really know the full backgrouns of the athletes in terms of their training intensity especially or their basic weekly mileage and running times?

good ideas about training camps, but hs-college system you describe is completely unworkable. most kids in this country are going to college to get a degree (or to party and meet girls), not specifically for running. they may choose a college based on running, but they know in the back of their minds that they are going to have to get a real job someday - its in their economic best interest to do so.

second, the college running system is one set up like other sports in college: its all about competition for the college between other colleges. long term development isn't really given much thought - its about running well at NCAAs, and hopefully, if you're good enough, you can get a trials qualifier.

if we want a national team/training camp, we've got to do what the US soccer federation did. it realized that hs and college soccer were killing its development internationally, so they set up training camps for teens/young adults. no more playing the rival school across town. no more playing your conference foes. just training and high level matches.

usa distance running has got to take the same approach. sorry to say, but screw the post-collegiates now. work on a system of identifying kids in middle school/jr. high early stages of high school. set them up in a national camp environment. train them, have them take classes, etc. hell, do it for all events - you think our best jumpers couldn't benefit from top notch instruction starting in their teen years?

at some point we've got to say no to the college system. rupp seems to have the right idea (whethers he's got the best coach is another matter)

Can't Find Any? wrote:

Please name a CURRENT Italian he coaches that can run a 5K or a 10K faster than Trackhead ran 25-30 years ago?

How fast did trackhead run 25 years ago?

I understand that the bulk of NCAA running is not going to make a living off running.

But there are a few power houses that seem to have the major high school talent and education paid, etc.

Did Deena and all others go to Arkansas for the educational value or good team/ coaching situation or a bit of both?

Early talent (top 300 list????) should be id'ed in high school or earlier and say: "hey you're quite good at this running thing have you thought about running in college?"... to be a good runner you need to....

Saratoga Springs NY seems to develop talent, is it all local??? What's so great about their system? No need for an answer, but it's a valid question. Can an assistant college coach help out at some basic high school training background in the state. Can graduating students use the great college facilities for training bases with all the facilities, medical, track...etc. That's the best system base in the US, it's the colleges. They are all geographically located over the nation.

I'm flattered (I found on vocabolary...) to be so much named by a lot of posters, the most part of whom don't know anything about me and my background.

In any case, I want to show the lists of best italian juniors in 5000m in 1982 and 2002, without any comment, as also some moron can understand why now we dont't have any good runner in 5000/10000m :

1982

13:45 Carenza

13:45 Mei

13:46 Panetta

13:51 Nicosia

14:02 Gozzano

14:11 number 10

2002

14:26.84 Scaini

14:33.15 Montorio

14:36.41 Ghezzi

14:39.95 Tezzoni

14:43.54 Cugusi

14:58.4 number 10

The average of the difference is about 45.0 (that in 10000 is 1:30). If mathematics is not an opinion, 27:30 plus 1:30 is 29:00.

Who is able to understand, can do it.

Who is not able, must go to a doctor because of sure his brain is sick.

i see what you're saying, but what you've provided is a list showing that italians AREN'T running as fast as they were 20 years ago, not the reasons why. if you want to argue that they aren't running as fast because the juniors aren't running as fast, then it just begs the question:

why aren't the juniors running as fast as they were 20 years ago?

More seriously, I want to explain that in Italy, from 30 to 8 years ago, there was a group working together, discussing their experiences, coaching different athletes but knowing everyone the precise trainings of the athletes of the other coaches. In this way we created the "Italian School of Middle distances and Marathon".

Many of the names written in this post are not of my athletes. The historical coaches of the group were Luciano Gigliotti (the leader, with Bordin, Baldini, Guida and Lambruschini), Lenzi (Pizzolato, Bettiol, Fogli), Polizzi (Antibo), Rondelli (Cova, Panetta, Goffi), Tordelli (Del Buono 13:22 in 1972, now Caimmi). I was the direct coach of the best women (Curatolo 8th in OG '88 and silver in European Ch. '94 in marathon, Ferrara 3rd in WCh '95, Viceconte italian record holder with 31:05.54 and 2:23:47, Dandolo 5th in WCCCh '90 and '92) and of some marathon and HM runner (now Giacomo Leone, Berradi, Gamba running 13:23 and 28:01 also, Rinaldi winner last week in 2:11:48 in Treviso, and others). But I was also who put together the experiences of the group, beeing the methodologist of the group (my role in Italian Federation was responsible for research and experimentation in methodology, then Scientific Director).

About the talent, of course top runners have big talent. The first thing that I say when I have the courses for coaches for IAAF is "remember that the most important quality is to have mama and papa with the best genes.".

But one thing that makes me proud is that all the athletes coming to me (and I never asked to anyone to train with me, is their personal choice) were able to improve, and who left me due to a manager with his organization was no more able to run the same performances.

Anyway, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a phenomenon, I'm not a myth for speaking so much about me. I'm only a coach that had the fortune to do in his life what he had passion to do, and that had the opportunity to do a lot of experiences that now I like to share with other coaches.

Who wants to read and to discuss with me, can do it. Who is not interested, can skip this post going to some other for him more interesting.

8ball wrote:

Early talent (top 300 list????) should be id'ed in high school or earlier and say: "hey you're quite good at this running thing have you thought about running in college?"... to be a good runner you need to....

Saratoga Springs NY seems to develop talent, is it all local??? What's so great about their system? No need for an answer, but it's a valid question. Can an assistant college coach help out at some basic high school training background in the state. Can graduating students use the great college facilities for training bases with all the facilities, medical, track...etc. That's the best system base in the US, it's the colleges. They are all geographically located over the nation.

the problem with the us college system is that the best coaches, physiologists, doctors are spread out, and competing against one another. and the seasons are completely out of whack with international running, much like the soccer season here (fall) isn't really on the international schedule.

look at a guy like karl paranya. could haverford provide him with the best facilities for sport? the facilities there pale in comparison to say, UT-Austin or Nebraska. add in altitude, climate, etc. and some of the best talent isn't training effectively. on top of that, who needs to run against sub-par competition in xc in sept? crappy conference meets in february? for what? glory of the school?

and to answer the question about saratoga, they've got a grea system. and yes, the talent is local. but one of the reasons they are so good is that others aren't. i went to a h.s. with a great tradition (not as good as saratoga), always in the top 25 in the nation, often in the top 10. we were so good because we had 10 guys every year who could run sub 4:30. nothing great, but just more depth. saratoga is much the same way, though on a higher level. their top girls aren't far and away the best, but they have tons of girls who are very, very good.

and its interesting to see what happens to saratoga girls once they move on.

would they be better served laying off the n.y. state meet and training for something greater, say world xc? i don't know, but i know it hasn't been tried.

It just goes to show the amount of untapped talent. There is no rift valley that I know of in SSprings, good pasta at the fire hall though, but no altitude. Good point on the need for altitude post NCAA.

I think that the reasons are the following :

1) 30-20 years ago, there were few different sports in Italy, and in the school the only disciplin being a MUST was Athletics. From 1985 about, in the school all the Federations tried to have their space, so now there are championships for all the sports, that are not possible to do at school (like sailing, fencing, ping-pong, tennis and many other). So, athletics lost the mean of "basic sport" for all the other disciplins.

2) At the moment, in the school there is not any sport activity, so the recruitment is difficult, and can be done only by private clubs.

3) We have a structure based on clubs, but 90% of our activity is thru MILITARY CLUBS (FF.OO is Police, FF.GG are customers, Forestale are Rangers, Carabinieri is Military Police, Aeronautica is Air Force, FF.AA. is Prisons, Esercito is Army). But in these clubs, athletes can go only when seniors (more than 19 years). So, as in Italy all the activity is based on different Club Championships (we have 57 different Club Championships, for multiple events, for road races, for walking, for complete teams, for specialisms, for different categories, for cross, for indoor, etc...), the basic and private clubs have no more interest in recruiting new athletes, as when they are seniores move to Military Clubs. We, very simply, forgot that Athletics is an individual activity.

4) In any case, the interest of young people now is no more in any sport of fatigue. Soccer takes 80% of general interest, but now there are other sports (like motors) that are goals for teen agers. They are fascinated by sports with a lot of money and visibility (tennis, ski, now also golf), and Athletics has not this type of characteristic. Other thing is that all our life today is based on finding comforts. For going to school 200m far, children go by car. For going to their apartment at 1st floor, they take lift. So, the concept of "fatigue" is going to be cancelled from our life, and without this concept is not possible to become a long runner.

So, my opinion (and is a sad opinion) is that our sport at top level is at the end of a cycle. And, if there are now many good marathon runners, is because, with a good methodology, training marathon is easier than training short distances, and don't need very high talent for good results. With a professional behavior, you can become a good marathon runner thru 10 years of activity, but without talent, never can become a good runner of 800/1500/5000/10000m and steeple.

It isn't just Italy.....every country in Europe got the same problems.

The youth of today got so many sports and interests to choose of. The popular sports gets even more popular, easy work and fast results is what most are looking for today, not hard work and slow progression.

The hope is the people who are ready to make running their lifestyle due to the love of the sport.

To get more people involved in running, through school and college, Europe should follow the american system.

sub4fella wrote:

....

To get more people involved in running, through school and college, Europe should follow the american system.

The American system doesn't bring International results. In America runners and coaches are so concerned with competing against each other that they fail to realise they are falling further and further behind in developing athletes to compete in Europe, where the real action is.

Perhaps you have a point in the long distance races - I'll leave that arguement alone. But for sprints, hurdles, jumps, vault, throws, and relays, I think that you would concede that the U.S. in not behind any country.

Renato Canova wrote:

3) So, as in Italy all the activity is based on different Club Championships (we have 57 different Club Championships, for multiple events, for road races, for walking, for complete teams, for specialisms, for different categories, for cross, for indoor, etc

ahhhh, the legendary italian efficiency.

(sorry couldn't resist - we have about the same in the u.s.)

Here

Danno wrote:

Stop asking dumb questions and get out and run - that's the answer.