Some more information about kenyan athletes

Abuc wrote:

Yeah, I'm sure EPO affects an 800m runner. Get real. The 800m is a tight balance between an anaerobic and aerobic race, so since an 800m race requires the anaerobic component, which EPO DOES NOT affect, then the point is mute. Bungei could run 1:42 off of jogging around in Kenya. If he was on EPO, I would expect him to run 1:39.

Once guys start running sub-1:40 then I'll be a doubter (unless it is 20 years from now).

GUESS THIS FOOL NEVER RAN AN 800.....SEVERE OXYGEN DEBT OVER THE LAST 200/300 METERS....YES, EPO WILL GIVE THE 800M RUNNER A 3.5 TO 4.0 SECOND BOOST.

Mr. Canova, could you send me the program of Mutua. These things fascinate me as I am always looking for new training ideas.

I want to do some comment on your posters.

1) It's clear the reason because many people in the world are against americans. No people is able so arrogant, so presumptuous and so badly nationalist like american (of course, only a little part of people, but is the part that ruins the american image in the world). You are like nazists, and someone of you probably is. You don't know the mean of words like solidarity, comparison, humilty. You want to order, and other people has to obey. The truth, for you, is what you want, and every thing is different is lie. The level of this post, when many of you write, is good for a mental hospital.

Fortunately, there are people that want to discuss about something of real, and already I received about 40 e-mails in 3 days, from people asking information THAT CAN OR NOT USE, BUT IN ANY CASE ARE SOMETHING MORE. You continue to say nonsens and lies (for ex., Lagat was tested on 8th of August, while Bungei was in the hospital one week before 23rd of July : where is the coincidence ?), to shoot stupidities (4 secs of improvement in 800m with EPO seems that Coe could run in 1'37" using that drug...) showing your real nature of perfect idiots.

Anyway, is not my problem, but your. I feel very deep compassion for you, because I imagine how bad you live every day doubting other people's honesty and beeing always angry, tormenting yourselves. Poor peolple, meriting pity and some cure, because are sick in their mind.

So, I continue to write if some people want, and, because I have nothing to hide, and my e-mail is clear in the post, I can answer to people that want to discuss with me in correct way. Have a nice day, dear posters, and try to finish to write like Eminem, speech of the modern society.

Renato. The behavior you describe is not an "American thing". Nor is it even a generational thing. The internet exposes to many of us, psychotic personalities whom we'd never come in contact with during the normal course of our daily lives. I suppose these people, commonly called trolls, have always been out there in the days before the internet. It's just that we've never seen them. They are like roaches, the scatter under the scrutiny of daylight. They are cowardly, thin-skinned, quick to find an insult into every word typed, and deliberately resort to false accusations and rumor-mongering. I agree with you, it's pathetic and many of them should seek professional mental help.

I realize that to someone as yourself, who speaks English fluently but lacks understanding of the American idiom, it is difficult to sort through the noise. Believe me, it's difficult for some of us fluent in the language and culture to understand the motivation of some of these punks.

Keep posting Renato. Many of us here know that there are many other Africans who haven't been caught yet. We are also level-headed enough to know that many others are not doping. I'll take your word on it for your guys.

Watch out, you might want to refrain from "dissing" Eminem. To some of these kids, Marshall Mathers (Eminem), who can't talk, is a poet-laureate to a generation.

Well put, Malmo.

Renato, no matter what you say there will always be someone that tries to argue just for the sake of arguing. It seems there are people with lots of time to pass, and arguing with people without revealing their identites is common on these boards.

However, I personally hope you will ignore them and keep posting information about training, etc. I think this is information that those serious about athletics will appreciate.

The thread deserves a bump!

Yes it does deserve some serious bumping, but the problem is that there were about 3 good/serious replies in a row in this thread. Which will cause the typical Letsrun poster to shy away.

-Clay

think of it as Americans

Skah claimed in his talk that Norwegian long-distance runners are doing to much easy distance training. It was very clear from Skah?s talk that the quality of the aerobic endurance training done by the Moroccan long-distance runners is substantially higher than what traditionally is done in Norway.

Skah further states that shorter faster distance workouts combined with extensive usage of interval training is producing better results than what is typically used in Norwegian running, orienteering and cross-country ski training; lots of easy long distance training combined with some interval training.

You should however not be fooled to think that you can get away with low training volume when you are training with high quality. About 200 kilometer per week is common for the Moroccan running great.

Skah characterized Norwegians in general as "softer" and more concerned about heart rates than Africans. He looks at heart rate monitors as unessential in training and made it clear that Moroccan runners do not use them. (Torbjorn?s comments: Those of you that have read some previous stuff I have published about Bjorn Daehlie might remember that he stated that he is not using a monitor as well).

There should be a little "go-go-go" and "kill yourself" on your workouts. The training needs be with aggression. This is one of the reasons that he doesn?t run any longer than 60 minutes during distance training.

"If you are going to get good you need to run fast and often".

Two daily running sessions year round is a must if you want to become a successful long-distance runner.

The main ingredients in Moroccan middle distance runners' training is:

- Morning workouts need to be done every day year round.

40-50 minutes for long distance runners and 30-50 minutes for middle distance runners.

- Distance workouts need to be quality oriented

- Altitude training is systematically used

- The last few days before important competitions needs to be very easy.

Winter/Spring Training Toward The Cross Country Season.

Seven weekly morning distance sessions, two weekly afternoon distance sessions and five weekly interval sessions. The interval sessions are mostly done on the track and a few in short uphills. The longest uphill used is 350 meter.

The speed is very high (2.40-2.50 per 1000 meter when they are doing intervals) and the longest intervals are five minutes. I will describe the intervals as hard but each session is not that long. The longest one I observed was 8 x 1000 meter.

This training period always starts with a three-week period with two daily workouts but no interval/quality training.

All intervals are done on the track except for the hill training.

how would you compare your 800 meter trainig to Luiz Oliveria?

Renato Canova wrote:

You continue to say nonsens and lies (for ex., Lagat was tested on 8th of August, while Bungei was in the hospital one week before 23rd of July

The reports at the IAAF site had Bungei (and others) pulled from the team the same day Lagat was tested. That might be why some posters are suspicious.

You state some things about Americans that are so typical of continentals. I've visited Italy, and found many Italians to be incredibly vain and boorish. Does that mean they are all like that? No. I keep that in mind.

It's doubtful EPO would give someone like Coe, at the far end of the "bell curve" when it comes to running ability a four second improvement. It might give him a two second improvement. Now, I'm sure other letsrun visitors are thinking of all kinds of funny ways that we could 'test' this out, or who to ask to see if that's true. But we'll leave to others. The trolls will surely chime in. Time marches on, and so does science. Things that are impossible at the moment, with drugs, will be possible, with newer drugs, down the line. Unfortunately. It seems that many top athletes aren't just athletes, they may also be daredevils. Or just plain desperate.

It's hard to convince the cynics that some of the top Africans might be clean, simply because of the rapid improvement seen among some individuals. Who knows? It is a fact that the type of rapid improvement, just on an individual basis, is something we haven't ever seen before, at least in such numbers. Some of the improvement over athlete's careers are also raising eyebrows. In the same manner that the improvement and success of 'old' sprinters in the late 80's and early to mid 90's filled many knowledgable fans with suspicion.

Some of the trolls bring up valid points, it's just the way in which they fire off their opinions and questions that turns many people off. The one question posted that did interest me was the one along the lines of why no European, or at least Italian runners you may come in contact with seem interested in the 'innovations' alluded to? There could be myriad answers. If you find the time, please post some of them. Thanks.

I want to explain that never Bungei was pulled out of the team, for the simple reason that he didn't partecipate in Trials. The big fight in Kenyan federation was because official (like General Secretary David Okeyo) that wanted the team strongest as possible, wanted to put in the team Bungei (and also Mutua) also without Trials or after losing them, because the two best without any discussion during the last two-three years ; but, beeing a rule for Kenya (like for US, I think) to put top 3 without any caught again, managers of qualified athletes (Wachira expecially) refused, threatening to call a lawyer, and AK was obliged to confirm the top 3 in Trials. The rule was clear from the beginning, so also Bungei knew that was out of WCH ; but he hoped in an exception, and also AK well knew that the only possibility of a medal was from Bungei, but it was not possible to change.

About you other question, I want to explain you that our "innovations" were the experiments of a group of coaches, that were able to reach very good results in the recent past, trying something different. Anyone of our top runners of 80-90 years used very advanced systems, were followed by their coaches daily, and were talented when young. For example, during World Cross Ch. '82 in Rome, the junior team was with Mei (13'45"), Panetta (13'46"), Carenza (13'45"), Nicosia (13'51") and Gozzano (13'53"). All them had a good career, someone at the top (Panetta and Mei), the other good (number 4 Nicosia and 5 Gozzano in World Marathon Cup). Currently, 20 years later, the best Italian junior runs 5000m in 14'35" : where do you want to go ? You understand that is not a problem of systems, but of talent. Another thing is that, 20 years ago, we discussed during our stages for long time, comparising our experiences. This fact permitted to everyone to grow in his knowledge, because nobody is like God, knowing everything. Now, new coaches without experience think to know everything because they read many books of scientists, THAT NEVER COULD EXPLAIN WHAT REALLY HAPPENS IN THE BODY OF A CHAMPION ! No humilty, no talent. This is the italian athletics today.

Please break up your post into paragraphs separated by a space. It's a lot easier to read that way.

I want to explain better because I don't believe very much in science about running. There are two kinds of science : one is INDUCTIVE SCIENCE, as for ex. mathematics or physics, in which you can plan a project and build the action following what you planned at the table before.

Another is DEDUCTIVE or EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE, like medicine, in which you can only explain what happens. So, for explaining a phenomenon, you must investigate itself. The question is : how many times scientists were able to investigate top athletes, and in this case top runners, expecially if kenyans ? I read books in which one of the reasons of top kenyan results was individuated in a "very high level of hematocrite", for ex. I tested not only all my athletes, many times, but also 64 athletes very young, in Eldoret, in '99, when I was responsable for IAAF of a stage with 22 African Countries (each one with one coach, two youth male and two youth female), and I found levels of hemoglobin very low (9.5 - 11) and of hematocrite the same (32-36). I thought that was another calibration in the machine, so I tested like control myself : I had my normal values (14.8 and 42), so the difference was really in the blood, not in the machine !

But this means that who wrote the books, NEVER TESTED ANYONE, WRITING FALSE INFORMATIONS. So, you read many times something not true, thinking that that is SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE, and you think to know. NOTHING MORE WRONG !

I also thought that training was different, till when I could coach directly african runners, appreciating the difference and giving them something from our knowledge.

For ex., top runners of 5000 can run for about 8 min at a teady state level of 9-10 mmol of lactate, having a MAX LASS so high that all physiologists don't think possible. But THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, not what is possible to investigate having a group of students like models.

bum p

oh yeah you resume is very nice. My jaw is still on the floor. How about I help you with your English and you coach me.

why don't you take the time to learn italian and attempt to write mr. canova a letter in italian, buddy.

have some freaking respect.

So, you are saying that running is a DEDUCTIVE science, correct? I understand the difference.

yeah I would like to learn Italian. But that was meant to be a complement ot Mr Rento or did that compleatly go over you head MR ABC.

complement in the sense that his resume and coaching ability surpasses me and I have only english as a bargaining chip. Why don't you show some respect and apologize to me you presumptious twat.