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| ? |
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Nobby: What do you think about Henry Rono's jumping right into training with 2-3 hours runs right at the start? Note the thread related to his chasing the Master's Mile WR. |
| Nobby |
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I was just reproducing some of Lydiard's old interviews way back in 1970s. In it, he clearly stated that "it is very much individual thing" and you cannot creat some sort of cookie-cutter formula that would fit into everybody. It's all depends on your own strengths and weaknesses; background of training; environment and situation, etc. Failing to understand that, no training principles will make you a champion. You may improve some; but nowhere near what could be done. As you know, and I hope some of the readers recognize this fact as well, Henry Rono is a multi-world record holders from the late 70s and early 80s. He has run thousands of miles on his feet, way back I'm sure from his school-boy days. It's safe to assumem that he had developed tremendous oxygen carrying capacity. Lydiard always said that, once you've deveoped aerobic capacity, you won't lose it. What he means is not that he could get back to world-record breaking shape, but that you could very quickly get back to a certain level of endurance activities. From what I've read, I don't think he's very much concerend at all at what pace he's running those 2~3 hours, which is correct way to approach. Bearing in mind, he would not hurt himself from wearing incorrect shoes or too much unnecessary pounding, and he feels happy about the effort and not overexerting himself, I don't see any reason why this is not a good formula for him. As for myself, I have recently gotten back to a twice-a-day routine; running anywhere from 25~45 minutes in the morning and 45~100 minutes in the afternoon with a long run on weekend (usually about 2 hours). My wife was worried about a sudden jump (I was jogging about 3~5 times a week for about 30~90 minutes at a time) but I feel quite happy about the effort and, in fact, I feel progress in my strength. I did make a sudden shift but I was confident that I could manage it. I didn't run much for about 5 years now but then again, I had tons of aerobic running (80~125 miles a week) when I was younger...and lighter! I'm careful of wearing the correct types of shoes and choose the surface of the runs. In fact, I'm having less leg problems now than when I was lighter because of that. |
| knowerer |
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patience, wet coast. patience. |
| runner39 |
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Nobby, I really liked your Lydiard Foundation website, good info and articles. I have a few question regarding the anaerobic phase, 1) correct me if I am wrong but Lydiard doesn't advise long reps with short rests during this phase i.e. mile reps at 5k pace w/ 2 min rest, so if this is right please explain, would this workout be more beneficial, 3-5 x 1 mile at 5k pace w/ 1 mile jog rest 2) at what pace should you run the reps, i.e. 400's at mile race pace, 1000m reps at 5k pace? or does it matter I understand you don't start the workout with a set number of reps to do, just run them until you can't keep the pace or lose your form but if someone is training for 5k/10k races what is the point of hammering 400's, shouldn't they be doing more 5k/10k pace reps. Thanks |
| Henry Rono |
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To ? In late 1950s,before I started elementary education we used to walk 40 miles from Nandi Hills to Tarbo all-day.Those years there were no cars in Kenya.This is during Colonial times. We could start before the sun-up and by the time we reach Tarbo the sun is down.My feet has log alot of mileage You can't compare me and others.If ask my kids to do what I'm doing their bodies will be shocked.I have to start training them in a very gradual manner.My kids were born and shoes were ready on the feet. I didn't put on the shoes until I was 21 years-old, when I joint Kenya Army in 1973 and I was allergic to it.Finally I accept in order to keep the Army job.I used to get injuries alot using the shoes.Running barefooted was easier for me then wearing shoes. This is the differences and its individualizes program of training and running. Henry |
| Kim Stevenson |
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Welcome aboard Henry. I for one would be interested to know what you did running/walking wise through your teenage years. I don't think many of us understand that athletes such as yourself built up huge Aerobic capacities doing everyday things like run to school, tend cattle,etc. Any input would be interesting. Thanks. |
| Henry Rono |
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To kim Stevenson, We were not sitting on couch all-day as my kids does nowdays.I live three miles away from school run to school, run back for lunch and run to school afternoon and come back home.From first grade through-out my school years until I was 20 years old. My kids have a car waiting for them out-side the door.To take to school since day one.Then you ask them to do what I'm doing are kidding me? They have to have their own individualize training program to become great runners. Henry |
| Nobby |
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Henry: Your comment reminds me so much of exactly what Lydiard used to say: Upon being asked why he thought Bowerman didn't have his runners run 100 miles a week, he said; "I never recruited any athlete, so I needed to build them up." That, I guess, is what you're talking about: "They have to have their own individualize training program to become great runners." |
| Henry Rono |
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To Nobby, That is what I do.You go back 1978 the press asked me similar question after I broke four events in track& fielg about how to coach athlete.I told them I need to talk with an athlete first thing and get to know them hear what they are saying, before I set up lesson plans for the individualization training program.And every-body runs through-out the world. It is exactlly what you are refering to. Henry |
| Dr. Exag |
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This is a beautiful metamorphosis unfolding from a thread, started by an individual to sus out the difference between two coaching theories. Sweet. |
| Nobby |
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Runner 39: Thanks for your feedback. More to come on the website! First of all, you'd have to realize that, when Lydiard started to prescribed longer reps; it was because he realized that a lot more older people or slower people started to run and, for them, blasting around the track with 400s or 200s would invite injuries. Hense longer and slower reps. Some might argue that longer reps, be it miles or 1ks, be more of a threshold reps or whatever the fancy name might be. That's probably exactly right. If you're a track runner and would like to run 800 or 1500 or 5000, it might be better to do 400s. For that, just run one fast and jog one (equal distance for recovery). Some people like shorter recovery; but to me, that would end the workout prematurely (only do 12 instead of 20 because of lactic acid accumulation) plus you may not be able to do them as fast (too tough!). Again, this is where we can continue our argument forever; but I would NOT worry about the pace; be it your mile pace or 5k pace. Just do them fast enough to creat oxygen debt; but not too significant that you can only do them 3 or 5 times! You need to be at it for 30~45 minutes total (including recoveries) because you need the volume of anaerobic exercise; not short sharp stuff (not yet, at least). I'm actually doing some reps now on the trail. This particular train has 1/10 mile markers. I'm sure they are not as accurate as some of you would like. It's a dirt path so footing is not as great. I just go out and do two poles fast, two slow. Do them like 8 to 10 times. I never time them; I just do them fast enough to continue about 8 or 10 times. Go back and read Richard Tayler story in "Running with Lydiard". That is, according to Dick Brown, the most beautiful lesson any athlete/coach can learn. |
| Nobby |
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Henry: Totally agree with you! This is why I would differ anybody who claim to say they know exactly what people would have to do by giving them explicitly what to do (pace, distance, HR, you name it) by simply reading a question on the message board. There's NO way anybody can do that. I know everybody wants a cookie-cutter formula; someone to tell you EXACTLY what to do in training. Sure, we can give you some formula and, most probably, you'd improve some. But no way in hell, with this kind of "coaching" you'll fulfill your potential and be as great as you could otherwise become. It would definitely have to be individualized. |
| runner39 |
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Nobby, Thanks for the reply. A couple more questions: 1) I am a 5k to 1/2 marathon runner, should I still be doing 400's, what about one day of 400's, one day of longer reps and one day of a time trial 2) you just read and hear so much about the workout, 5 x 1k at 3k/5k pace w/ 90 secs rest, I have done this workout before and although it makes me feel strong to complete it kicks the crap out of me, I have been told it just prepares you for races but sometimes I feel like I left my race in the workout, lately I been reading about Canova who coaches some Kenyan athletes and he advocates long recovers with these longer reps, would it be fair to say Lydiard does the same, I read one of the articles on your website where he states that the Moroccan's are using longer recoveries when doing long reps, please comment 3) would someone training for a marathon be running hard 400's during the anaerobic phase |
| Nobby |
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Runner 39: I don't see any problem doing one shorter reps, one longer reps, etc., but I'd quesiton doing these two plus time trial. Unless you do it like real Lydiard schedule (concentrated period to do anaerobic training), it could be a bit too much. I'd alternate those three in, say, two-week cycle; something like that. It was Richard Tayler's coach, Alstair McMurran, who went to Morroco to observe their training and comment it to Arthur that they do reps faster with longer (more full) recovery. I'd agree with that because you'd be able to do faster runs that should also accompany fast mechanics and nervous system and all. Remember, Arthur's hesitation of taking shorter reps is that you'd get tired more quickly. Then you'll lose fine speed because you're more tired; you'd be struggling trying to maintain the pace. Why not do them faster and more completely recovered? Just keep doing them till you "hit the wall". As for 400 reps, Frank Shorter was extremely successful with 400 reps. Is it actually better for marathon runners? I would not necessarily say that. Most Japanese marathon runners never do 400 reps any more. Their training evolved; Seko used to do 400s and was successful but today's marathon runners hardly ever do 400s and they are extremely successful too. Again, training schedule must be tailored to the individual. I would argue people doing mile reps during the marathon conditioning; but I used to do them myself simply because I needed them. I couldn't really do fast tempo type runs during the conditioning so I did repeats of about 1200m (happened to be the distance around this circuit) with about 100m recovery. Short recovery simply to keep the effort low (not too fast) and that worked well for me. But now I do more of tempo type--I don't know if I've matured or what; but it seems to work better for me now. So it's all depends. Are you tryiing to develop anaerobic capacity; are you trying to have fast high aerobic training; are you trying to develop speed??? Are you in the conditioning phase; are you preparing for races; are you simulating for the races??? It all depends. You cannot simply say this workout is better than that. |
| wet coast |
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it occurred to me while reading the rono threads that henry is quite lydiard influenced. would you agree henry?
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| Wet Coast |
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Imposter! That was not I! |
| wc=ck |
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lydiardites unite! henry has joined this great thread and that seems rather natural. i get the feeling that henry runs like an artist creates. i enjoy viewing the few pictures of henry racing in the 78-81 period. he is on fire in an all consuming passion for the activity. someone somewhere said you didn't just watch henry race. he put on a grand spectacular performance. |
| runner39 |
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Nobby, "I don't see any problem doing one shorter reps, one longer reps, etc., but I'd quesiton doing these two plus time trial. Unless you do it like real Lydiard schedule (concentrated period to do anaerobic training), it could be a bit too much. I'd alternate those three in, say, two-week cycle; something like that." I forgot to mention this was my outline for the anaerobic phase You mentioned Richard Tayler's story from one of Lydiard's books, could you describe it briefly. |
| HRE |
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The story is probably on the thread somewhere already, but maybe not. When Arthur was getting Richard Tayler ready for the 1974 Commonwwealth Games 10.000, they went to a track and Tayler was going to do some 400 repeats. There were some kids at the track who asked Arthur how many 400s Tayler would do and how fast. Arthur said that he didn't know, didn't care and that it didn't matter. Tayler would just run 400s until he got into a big oxygen debt and then quit. |
| agoodvictorian |
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many will love that story, but i'm sure many will hate it too. (i hope you don't take that in a negative way. i just want to talk about attitudes and philosophies of coaches and runners.) many top runners and coaches will argue that there must be well planned sessions, where the desired pace is set, and the recoveries and the totals etc. the above story can be taken out of context, and indicate that session planning is a bad thing, or that nothing really matters in terms of regulating volumes and intensites. it does matter, a lot. progressive training requires careful monitoring of the variables, not an anarchaic approach. even in the lydiard world. |
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