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| Skuj |
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No physiology here, although, I could! 4 sets of 4x200m, 30sec between reps, lotsa time between sets. 800 pace!!! Yes, 800 pace. 4x200m with minimal recovery AT 800 pace is an intense thing, a race simulation, damn good training. Do 4 of em!! But rest a whole lot between these things. I don't know if I'm making sense, but I find reps and sets to be very expansive in the things that you can do. 16x200 with even a minute rest at the same pace would drive me nuts, I think. It would have to be slower paced. Peaking: 73 words: Multipacing year round. Each zone is addressed in different ways depending upon the time of year. Aerobic conditioners are 30min jogs when you start, and 2hr strong aerobic at peak volume. Anaerobic conditioners are marathon pace when you start, and faster than half marathon pace later. Aerobic capacity is tempoish when you start, and 3k race pace later. 6x1000m at 15k pace in Oct and 3x1000m at 3k pace in june. Anaerobic capacitors gradually build from something like 15x200m at 3k pace in October to 4x400m at 800m pace in june. The general level of intensity increases right up to peak. The general level of volume peaks a few weeks away from the biggest race, then decay curves towards the race. There! :)
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| Nobby |
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When people do “sets”, usually their trying to push their body to more like lactate tolerance than other energy system. I remember reading something about Ovett’s training where he would do 400 and 200 with very short recovery in between and this being a set (could have been 300 and 200…). At such superb fitness level as Ovett was in, regular 400 repeats would not push his body to create enough lactic acid for tolerance training. The reason why we need a longer recovery between sets are simply because you need to. 200m is not that far but 30 seconds jog (I assumed it’s a jog) in between sounds pretty short. It is, after all, a pretty demanding workout. There’s nothing wrong with it, in my opinion, because it is an extreme way of developing your anaerobic capacity. Now you didn’t quite answer my question of WHY you’re doing them now. Looking at your summary of peaking (that was 118 words, by the way…!), that is a pretty good summary, I’m impressed (except for the word counts); I really am. A couple of further questions, however, would be: you said you’d start out your anaerobic conditioners at marathon pace in, you didn’t mention, but I’d assume it’s about the beginning of the cycle so, say, if you’re working on a 3-season program (outdoor, cross country and indoor), December or January??? But since marathon is mostly run in aerobic metabolism, I’d assume you meant the “effort”. As I know it myself very well, when you’re not in shape, even marathon pace (here I’m talking about the pace I should have been able to run when I was at my prime, which is basically 20 pounds ago!) feels absolutely breathless. You said somewhere that your marathon PR is 2:40, wasn’t it? Then that would be 6-minute-mile pace, or 3 minutes for 800m and that would be way too slow for your interval sessions and also this will not cover faster paced running in the multi-paced program as the way I understand it is. I like how you explained the increase of level of intensity from 3k pace in October to 800m pace in June. However, then how do you explain this to be multi-paced method when you are in fact not running at faster pace in the beginning of the cycle (800m pace in October), or did you not cover that part of it. The truth is; the way you explained it, be it continuous running or in a repetition form, is exactly like the Lydiard program (or if it’s a race-week, non-race week program as Aussies would do, just like how Deek or other Aussies did; same weekly program but intensity increases; which is once again based on the Lydiard principles) and you didn’t cover actual multi-paced running part in your summary of “Peaking Multi-Paced Program Way”. Now I don’t know if you’re doing multi-paced program, which I don’t think you actually said you were, and let’s just say you just like doing some fast stuff whenever you feel like according to your peaking program, why are you doing the repeats at 800m pace in February? I think you should be doing somewhere around 2400m pace in February according to your peaking summary. Besides, your workout indicates very high level of lactate tolerance (I’m assuming here again) which would get you ready for the race very quickly. So my question when I asked you the purpose of this type of workout is why are you doing it now? Any indoor race coming up in two weeks? Or you don’t have any idea when you are going to peak? Again, this is an argument Lydiard had to fight over the last 50 years—interval trained athletes don’t know when they are going to peak. If you like to compete year round, that’s perfectly fine and this type of workout of blending all kinds of speeds and paces through out the weekly schedule. Then that’s race-week, non-race week schedule. How you described the peaking for multi-paced training is exactly that. One last question would be; you said 2-hour strong aerobic run is the peak volume and that the general level of volume peaks a few weeks from the biggest race; does that mean you’d recommend the largest volume of training with “almost” most intense workouts along with it a few weeks before the biggest competition? Sorry, I had to throw this one just to mess with ya. Now you hate me! |
| Skuj |
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I LOOOOOVE you, Nobby! More worms, hahahaha. Wow, so much in your last post. I'll probably respond over a few posts.....multi pacing year round, and the dynamics of it, is a favourite topic of mine! As you know, I believe in it! But I also recognize the beauty of Lydiard. A different kind of beauty! OK, so my 200s are not exactly 800 pace right now. More like 1500 pace. The young guy that I'm coaching did 34-30sec on those 200s yesterday, but I'm certain he'll go well under 2min for 800m this year. Doing sets of 4x200m now does get my mind into the 800m race, my favourite distance these days. I rean really slooow...due to some fatigue this week, but I was still breathing heavily on the 3rd-4th runs. This is a stepping stone towards 31sec for me. I believe ALL the zones take 50-100 steps from beginning of the macro to the end of the race season. A few weeks before the big races, the volume peaks, and the general level of intensity is high, but not as high as it will be. A week before the biggest race, 3x400m at 800m pace will be nice. 2x1500m at 3000m pace will be nice. 5km tempo at 15km race pace will be nice. 45min easy runs will be nice. 6 weeks before, 6x400m with short recovery, 10k tempo at 30k pace, 3x2000m at 5k pace, 60-90min easy runs often. That kind of thing. The skeleton is there, with the zones, but the details change for building, sharpening, peaking, etc etc. My favourite week is: 1-aerobic capacity (long intervals) 2-aerobic conditioning 3-anaerobic conditioning (tempo) 4-aerobic conditioning 5-anaerobic capacity (short intervals) 6-aerobic conditioning 7-rest |
| Trollina Trollinski |
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QUOTE My favourite week is: 1-aerobic capacity (long intervals) 2-aerobic conditioning 3-anaerobic conditioning (tempo) 4-aerobic conditioning 5-anaerobic capacity (short intervals) 6-aerobic conditioning 7-rest UNQUOTE So you only think that once a week is ok for middle distance race pace even for 800/1500 people? Im glad ur not my coach. |
| Skuj |
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Oh. Sorry. Cheers. Skuj. |
| Nobby |
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Skuj: I’m glad you didn’t act like a typical letsrun readers or posters to my cocky comment! By the way, I'm happily married. Seriously, I really appreciate it and I actually did mean all those questions that I threw at ya. I think basically Lydiard called his own training program “balanced” with more emphasis on aerobic vs. anaerobic instead of…you guessed it, multi-paced. I’m not afraid or ashamed to say that I think the Lydiard program is THE most complete and comprehensive training program—it’s got EVERYTHING in the correct order; IF you fully understand what they were doing. He would say, run 100 miles a week at aerobic pace. People argue that it’s not good because all you’d do is slow running. It’s not so. As mentioned over and over here as well as other places; they weren’t just jogging. They run some of the runs quite fast. Also they did some fartlek. They also ran lots of cross country over very rugged area. Then they ran LOTS of hills during the conditioning phase—out of necessity living in New Zealand. So if it’s not multi-paced, it certainly was multi stimulus training. Then when they start out track workout, you, in general, start out with longer, slower pace (as described as 3k pace in Skuj’s program, though not necessarily at this rate) then move on to shorter distance at faster pace (as described as 800m pace in Skuj’s program, though not necessarily at this rate). And, while not necessarily the intensity, but certainly the speed of workout intensify right up to the target competition, just as described in Skuj’s program. However, while Lydiard’s runners did run over 2-hour even a few weeks before targeted competition, the effort is much easier—all the hard aerobic running at strong effort were done months prior to it so as to ease the stress on your body (not putting both “speed” stress as well as “endurance” stress). One argument here is that you said that you’re getting “your mind into 800m race” with the type of training that you’re dong now. Here’s the thing; many people complain about the Lydiard program because they’d have to do “nothing but lots of mileage for 3 months and you might burn out psychologically.” Well, the actual fact is that you have higher likelihood of burning out doing prolonged anaerobic training and, according to your schedule, you’d be “getting your mind into 800m race” for 4 months! That’s a hell of a long time to be thinking about the fast running and actually performing it—particularly IF you haven’t gotten a very strong solid aerobic base (a kind of ability you would develop by doing lots of mileage). One other thing is that people always seem to talk about Lydiard’s block approach but he ALWAYS stressed a smooth transition from one phase to the next by gradually introducing a similar exercise into your program; a most significant one is hill training but even from conditioning to hill training, he had talked about slowly introduce a similar type of stress into your program. Anybody who thinks his approach is an angular block-like program is someone who took it way too literally and has never actually practiced it in real life situation—or, in other words, not using what you got between your ears or something called “common sense.” Oh, by the way, what you had described as your weekly program looks awfully like Lydiard’s non-race week schedule… |
| Nobby |
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I think I've misspell a word and used a should-have-been sonsored word...??? |
| Beware of Dogma |
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Nobby, your first paragraph, well excuse me but did I write that prompted you to post such a retort? I think you must be completely misinterpreting what I am saying. And how can you say that 800m pace has no bearing on longer distances. Yes we are all different, but we all start off running/racing each other over short distances. Can you remember when you were very young? Watch some kids playing, they do hours of short distance Fartlek - that's where the idea of Fartlek comes from. We develop our pace mostly during the first 15 years or so of our lives, befor we start "training properly" Runners such as Paula Radcliffe who appear to be weak over the short distances, are only weak in comparison to rivals such as Tirunesh Dibaba. Both runners have done a huge amount of middle distance pace work. They don't run 800m but their 800m pace is as well developed as it needs to be, from current and previous training. |
| Mtn_Cat |
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bump |
| runmad |
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Lydiard... 'cause NOBBY SAYS SO!! |
| Howard (The Duck) |
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Bump... |
| Derderian |
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Nobby, On Saturday I had the bunch running hills and over to the house for pancakes and waffles. While they were cooking I was tempted to put on the Nobby-Runs-Hills tape, but they had already run and were talking and having a really good time so I didn't put in the tape, but I thought about it. I really, really did. Tom |
| Kim Stevenson |
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Tell us more Tom, I thought I had enough of this thread but find I am getting disappointed with other stuff being posted on this board and am missing the "cut and thrust" that developed here occasionally. Cheers : Kim |
| Derderian |
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The tape is Nobby demonstrating hill bounding. It is useful instruction, but entertaining only if you know Nobby. Tom |
| HRE |
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He may well miss this "revival." Nobby should be in Japan right now. |
| Skuj |
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It's criminal that this thread lies dormant for so long. It deserves to be displayed in a museum. How's Nobinski? The thread topic is Lydiard / Daniels. Mr Daniels, if you are lurking: Is training constantly changing? Do some countries get left behind when it comes to new training developments / approaches? I cannot help thinking that the psychology of racing at every distance does change over decades. 10000m is middle distance now. 1500m is sub 55sec per lap. These are huge leaps from "the good old days". The mentality is different now, and surely that must drive some "modern training methods". We see new things coming from certain countries / coaches. Other countries may not be so accepting of new training methods, and maybe they get left behind. Science and psychology are leading the way. Training has always developed over the decades, and will continue to develop, surely? Anyway, here's hoping that this thread continues to grow. Cheers Darren Skuja |
| Skuj |
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It's criminal that this thread lies dormant for so long. It deserves to be displayed in a museum. How's Nobinski? The thread topic is Lydiard / Daniels. Mr Daniels, if you are lurking: Is training constantly changing? Do some countries get left behind when it comes to new training developments / approaches? I cannot help thinking that the psychology of racing at every distance does change over decades. 10000m is middle distance now. 1500m is sub 55sec per lap. These are huge leaps from "the good old days". The mentality is different now, and surely that must drive some "modern training methods". We see new things coming from certain countries / coaches. Other countries may not be so accepting of new training methods, and maybe they get left behind. Science and psychology are leading the way. Training has always developed over the decades, and will continue to develop, surely? Anyway, here's hoping that this thread continues to grow. |
| Soless |
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I wonder, wouldnt it be great if the responses from the people who knew Lydiard and Know Daniels were categorized and printed? |
| HRE |
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Skuj, Nobby just got back from Japan. What an odd coincidence that this thread would come back just as he did. I haven't spoken with him and may let it go for a day or so to let him get over his jet lag. Your question about training continuing to develop is interesting, almost worthy of a thread of its own (This thread is for those of you old enough to have seen training methods...) well, you can create the title. I think it's interesting because a lot of us older guys, I know Hodgie-san has mantioned this, are not seeing anyone doing anything we didn't do thirty or so years ago. And of course there are others who see new things all the time. |
| Howard (The Duck) |
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Bump. |
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