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Glenn McCarthy
RE: 800m 10/10/2005 1:20PM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Though I don't remember him saying "specifically" about eating, I know that he had the runners we worked with have coffee and "bread" with jam before our morning runs. I thin he believed that having your stomache "settled" was worth it, even if conceptually you might be training your body how to deal with less available glucose. He figured we were running on depleted muscles and would soon enough run out the available glucose.

Glenn
salkowskim
RE: 800m 10/10/2005 9:14PM - in reply to Nobby Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks to both Nobby and Glenn for the kind replies. I'm not one to toot my own horn, but since Nobby suggested posting my blog address it must be the thing to do...right?

http://championseverywhere.com/blogspot.com/

I'm trying Lydiard's approach for the first time, and Nobby, HRE, Glenn, Kim and everyone else on this thread have been of great help in my understanding of some of the more difficult concepts. Thanks again to all.

So no tuna loading before the race? I can live with that. Sounds like my breakfast is about in line with what Glenn remembers, so I don't feel so bad. I'd be interested to hear jtuppers advice on this too, as I'm trying to do all I can to push "the wall" as close to the end of the race as possible.
salkowskim
RE: 800m 10/10/2005 9:18PM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The link on the bottom works, but not the one in the body of the message. Oops. Should be-
http://championseverywhere.blogspot.com/
Nobby
RE: 800m 10/11/2005 1:43AM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I believe it was 1980 Fukuoka marathon when Seko won it in 2:09:45 with Takeshi Soh a couple of seconds behind. The American, Kirk Pfeffer (remember him?) was at a party the night before the race and was offered some sushi. He said no way he'd eat raw fish and run a marathon. "Why," the host said, "Seko eats sushi." When it turned out, Pfeffer ran PR. He called his wife and asked her if she wants to hear the place or time first. She said time. He said 2:10:30. "You won!" she said excitedly. "No, seventh," he said. The gentleman who offered him sushi the night before said, "Now would you eat sushi?" He gave a I'm-sure-you've-heard-of-this reply of "But he could have run 2:08 if he didn't eat it!"
mikeinboston
RE: 800m 10/11/2005 2:06AM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mike,

Your training seems to be going really well. Score another few points for Lydiard (and yourself!). I'm definitely looking forward to following your blog.
Kim Stevenson
RE: 800m 10/11/2005 4:22AM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for the compliment. I feel my contibution is rather small compared to the other guys !.
Regarding eating, I am of the 'old school' brigade who has toast and honey (or marmalade) with a cup of tea before running. In fact that is what I also eat for breakfast !!.
I find that my stomach is quite settled with that diet.

Regarding Arthur and Nutrition : In the early 80's (before Eira died ) he was looking carefully at food and what food contained. I still have some articles he gave me regarding vitamin and mineral intakes and needs.
He was a good old "Fresh fruit and vegetable" person.
The only time he "told me off" for eating something he disagreed with was when we had lunch together one time when he was still working out of the Winstones office in Auckland.
They had a good staff Cafeteria so we went down for lunch . He got some sandwiches and fruit, I grabbed a Chicken leg (cooked !!!) and a sandwich and some fruit.
Arthur took one look at the chicken leg and said "Paul Ballinger told me that chicken is full of Hormones, I would'nt eat that !"
I burst out laughing because at the time Paul and his father were chicken farmers.
Arthur saw the funny side to that and laughed too.
How much Hormone treatment chickens in NZ recieved at the time I am not sure but now we are assured that all Chicken is hormone free.
By the way we both drank Tea, kiwi style with Milk and sugar !!!!!!!!!!
salkowskim
RE: 800m 10/11/2005 8:50PM - in reply to mikeinboston Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks MikeinBoston, it's been a great journey for me so far, and I'm enjoying running more than I ever have.

I think there are probably many "flys on the wall" that read this thread like me for all the great discussion and info, and I hope we can keep the ball rolling. When I started trying to follow Lydiard's training I never imagined such a great community for help and discussion existed.
Glenn McCarthy
RE: 800m 10/11/2005 9:23PM - in reply to salkowskim Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If you ever had questions that you want to run by someone, feel free to write to me. I would be glad to give you my take on what I think Arthur would have recommended. From reviewing your blog, looks to me like your training is on track. Keep up the good work.

Glenn
I Dare Not Say
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 1:23AM - in reply to Glenn McCarthy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Danials and various others (that other Italian or whatever he is) have, for a number of years, continued with an effort to slam Lydiard in one breath and then in the next breath espouse Lydiard approach chapter and verse and pass this off as their own philosophy. This is simply egotism at its worst and an obvious disrespect for one person who has developed the foundation for what has become big business for them. I had the misfortune to meet Danials at an RVM some years agoafter about two minutes I'd had enough of a diatribe that was littered with MY approach, MY philosophy ... Barely any of what he said could be considered new and I felt like I was in the presence of an Amway salesman.

At least people like Bill Bowerman were quite ready to recognise the critical role of Lydiard in the development of their training philosphies.

The only good use for Jack Daniels is about 7.00pm after a really great marathon event when you are still hyper as hell with the excitement of doing a P.R. or blowing away the competition and you need to get some sleep.

There are two options:

1. Take 2 to 3 ounces of Jack Daniels and sip slowly until you get that warm feeling overcoming you and head for the bed. Sleep will envelope you in the near future.

2. Take one copy of Daniels' Running Formula to bed. Begin reading sleep should come on some time between page 2 and 3. (Note: Laboratory tests have shown that complications such as nausea and vomitting may occur when reading this text. If this happens, resort to # 1 above)
Always got to be a jerk
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 1:38AM - in reply to I Dare Not Say Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
get a life. Daniels is the man. Possibly the best coach alive today. His system is proven and doesn't require any reading between the lines to understand. If more people followed his approach the U.S. wouldn't be in the sorry state is today. You can disagree with me. But I have seen results with my own training using the Daniels Running Formula. Also I don't know of anyone that has used the Daniels Formula that hasn't improved. So what do you think about that, I dare not say. More like you dare not stop from making a fool of yourself.
Nobby
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 12:04PM - in reply to I Dare Not Say Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
As far as I'm concerend, Arthur Lydiard is the one who "put it all together". But going for a long run (as many people trash him with) is nothing new; many other coaches were doing it in the 50s and 60s (probably even more so than today); other coaches have used hill training (if Harry Wilson or Peter Coe didn't know about the Lydiard method, they still would have come up with their hill training); many others, whether they worked effectively or not, tried to peak on the day with various system to peak on the day.

You COULD say Lydiard was a little more forceful salesman than some others. Has he exaggerate stories a bit? Sure he has! Does that taint his accomplishment and contribution? Absolutely not. Does some people trying to trash what he's done lessen what he has really done? NEVER.

While in Finaland as a national coach, Lydiard faced challenge of some well-known runners publicly disagreeing his method. Years later, they confessed to him that they were actually using his system! It made it a bit less easy to do his job as a national coach, but he did what he always did; he just get on with his job, ignoring the critics.
Nobby
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 12:25PM - in reply to Nobby Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I thought I wrote "to peak on the day" somethere... I repeated it. Would that discredit my comment in any way? Well...
Spider
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 2:47PM - in reply to Nobby Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mike S. --
I just flipped over to your blog and loved the heading about a 30s runner trying to do Lydiard training while balancing job and family. If you replace 30s with 40s (and add several qualifiers about a distinct lack of talent) you'd essentially have me (except I think you have 3 kids -- congrats -- and I have 2). Swell blog. Will read with interest.
Yrs, Spidey
salkowskim
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 5:12PM - in reply to Spider Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks Spider, Glenn and all. Part of the reason I started the blog is because I wish I could have found one before I started mine! I only have two kids but the youngest is 4 months now so he counts double much of the time. If we could get enough sites together, it would be great to start a Lydiard web ring (hopefully with fivecircles at the center Nobby!) And thank you Glenn, it sounds like your high school program gets fantastic results.
Kia Kaha Aotearoa
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 7:59PM - in reply to Always got to be a jerk Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
>

Well if more people had followed Bowerman's {and by Proxy, Lydiard's} approach years before Daniels even came on the scene the state US distance running would be just fine too.

>

Anyone who has followed the Lydiard program could say exactly the same thing. Improvement is a given if one follows the Lydiard approach. The problem is that everyone wants a quick fix and a quick result today so Lydiard's approach will not work for that sort of person.
drunkenhyena
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 8:50PM - in reply to Kia Kaha Aotearoa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Nobby, Tinman and jtupper (and anyone else who would like to join in):

I was hoping to get a friendly discussion regarding a thread that Tinman is contributing to over at www.run-insight.com. It's about maintaining mileage during the season, even during the period where many coaches and athletes would typically taper. I'm interested in how Lydiard's approach would support this (I think I already see, according to Dr. Daniels' schedules, how it factors in) as well as Nobby, HRE, Kim, etc. general thoughts on this. Just interested in possibly seeing an excellent thread by Tinman on another site possibly lead to productive conversations over here on this great thread.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/thee/vpost?id=678870
jtupper
RE: 800m 10/12/2005 11:35PM - in reply to drunkenhyena Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I try to get runners up to the mileage amount they will keep for the season, by the time they start doing the more quality training sessions; don't want to drop or increase any mileage at this point. Toward the end of the season, a drop in mileage depends on how much mileage is being done. If not doing more than 40 or 50 miles a week, may not need to drop any, but if doing high mileage some drop in both total mileage and faster quality is desirable
Nobby
RE: 800m 10/13/2005 12:54AM - in reply to drunkenhyena Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I wholeheartedly second what “Kia Kaha Aotearoa” (most intriguing name…) commented a few posts ago. Most people don’t look at the entire picture but rather take out a section or a combination of several sections and rush to conclusion. You have to look at the whole picture and, in the case of the Lydiard program, the whole cycle and/or culmination of several cycles over the span of several years. One cycle of entire program would be built upon another; that’s how athletes would develop to fulfill their potential.

Good example is this; if Joe S wants to improve, and he’s been running over 70 miles a week for 5 years, so he’s no entirely a beginner but his performance has been plateaued. Now you give him some injection of intervals, he would almost certainly improve his time—could improve quite dramatically as a matter of fact. So you rush to conclusion, “Running over 70 miles a week doesn’t mean anything. It didn’t add anything to my performance. Intervals are the key to success.” True or false? It’s actually both, isn’t it?

When evaluating training or training pattern, you can not take out just one segment of it and come to a conclusion. You would basically have to look at the entire life of that athlete up to that point and draw pieces of the puzzle. That’s what we always to with African runners (“They run to and from school since they were 5-years-old!”) but more often than not we don’t do that when we talk about our own training.

I was quite intrigued with that no-taper program. There have been some cases that the athlete trains fairly hard, or very hard as a matter of fact, and performed well. In the case of Naoko Takahashi when she made the WC team for 5000m way back; she ran 5000m time trial (hard!) in the morning of the race! That’s some extreme case. But I have no idea what she did leading up to that particular day. There have been a case, as Tinman used as an example, such as John Walker running nothing but strong aerobic distance for a couple of weeks and went on to set the WR. But I don’t know what kind of training he did 6 months prior to that and/or what kind of racing schedule he was doing 2 weeks before that. When you race a lot and your aerobic condition starts to come down, one of the best ways to get it up is to have something like what John Walker did. Arthur’s runners used to do three or four Waitakure, 22-miles, three or four days in a row, 22-miles everyday, and you will come right. You cannot, however, do that if you haven’t done solid conditioning period prior to that. Also it may not do anything if you haven’t been racing a lot and your aerobic condition started to deteriorate. Otherwise, why bother? So John Walker did a couple of weeks of 100MPW right before his WR, is it a good training pattern for your PR? Absolutely not. Of course I don’t think that’s not what Tinman is not suggesting that.

If you haven’t completed the phase one, you should not attempt to move into the phase two, or three. But far too many cases, people ignore that with the Lydiard training, or any other training method in that matter. They say running 100MPW is too much or you’ll get injured (overlooking other element Lydiard always talked about), so they don’t do that, yet, they like the Lydiard track schedule so they’d go ahead and do it. That does not pan out. All the training pattern Lydiard suggested, including tapering and use of time trials or sharpening work and all, would not mean anything if you had not developed good aerobic base. It may not necessarily mean to run 100MPW but pretty damn close. If you haven’t done that part of your homework, you may have no choice but to fill that in during the latter part of the program. It probably won’t hurt you that much. As Tinman always seems to advise, it’s heck of a lot better than doing more repeats! But I will still say that it’s not the way to approach the best possible results.

Human body can adapt to a lot of stress. If you give some young athlete to do lots of intervals, every other day, during the competition season, and on the top of that, have him/her run two or three races every week; he/she might even actually improve. Their body will adapt to tremendous amount of stress and may even get used to it and become more efficient at it (recall some old-timer athletes?). Is it the best way to train? NO. I have no intention whatsoever to put down someone who might have improved his 5k time from 18 minutes to 17 by such approach. Not at all. But this same athlete may be able to improve his time down to 16 minutes if done more correctly. Is improving from 18 minutes to 17 a failure? Absolutely not. But if I’m coaching someone at the Olympic Games, sure as hell not-tapering is NOT the approach I would experiment.

Again, Geb might have done some incredible workouts before some of his great performances but (1) consider his background of training, (2) were those workouts actually high stress workout for him at his level of fitness and (3) remember, if you’re world record level of fitness, your recovery rate is so incredible that they may possible set WR with only several days apart (remember Rono, Coe, or Clarke???). Suppose if those workouts were, say, 80% of his maximum workouts, would you give that kind of stress to your high school athletes? I wouldn’t. If I have a choice, I would rather do all the heavy load of workouts earlier on so you can be content with short, sharp work before important competitions so you’d be well-rested.

Another aspect that you should consider would be the fact that Lydiard runners, once they started competing, competed quite frequently. It is, to my understanding, a typical European style and you might even be competing a couple of times a week. Japanese system is a bit different and you may be able to get away with it (races come more irregularly) but even then, they taper as well at least a week prior to the main competition. Competitions are one of the best forms of training. And if you’re doing that once or twice a week, you probably don’t want to, nor should you, train hard any other days. Easy jog and short, sharp stuff with plenty of rest would be all you want to be doing with a long jog to maintain your aerobic development. Here, to me, is another phase that caught my attention; during the competition period, or right before the important competition, you shouldn’t be “developing” your aerobic capacity; you should be “maintaining” it. In other words, developing it should have been done several months ago.

Going back to the very original topic (not “Lydiard or Daniels”); should the mileage be kept up during the competitive season; and what would Lydiard have said about that? I think Lydiard would have said no, you should cut down the mileage, insert short, sharp work and be well-rested for the races. I’m not suggesting that keeping up the mileage and intensity of your workout during the competitive season is all that bad. You may actually improve upon such program depending on the level and background of your training (again, that’s more or less Race-Week / Non-Race-Week schedule). But I’d say that’s not the optimum way to train.
rollingthunder
RE: 800m 10/13/2005 2:11AM - in reply to I Dare Not Say Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mr. I dare not say, you should follow your name and keep your mouth quiet. WHy bash anybody (Daniels) for doing what he enjoys doing and actually contributing to the base of scientific research out there to benefit all athletes. He certainly isn't getting rich doing this. You are obviously a very sour person who's goals have never been met and probably are looking for someone to blame for them. Do us all a favor and have a shot of Jack Daniels, grab his book and go to bed. When you wake up tomorrow why not try something new, maybe being pleasant for a change, or, gee, I don't know, maybe follow the Daniels program for 6 months and see what happens. Report back on how it goes when you have actually used it.
Kim Stevenson
RE: 800m 10/13/2005 2:15AM - in reply to Nobby Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Kia Kaha Aotearoa ; has got to be a fellow kiwi.
Translates : Stand tall New Zealand
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