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| oasis |
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Nobby, After the peak race (5k/10k), the continuation of racing phase begins. Describe in detail what a non/race week and race week would consist, i.e workouts, easy run, long run, etc. Thanks |
| Nobby |
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Kim Stevenson went into detail on race-week/non-race-week schedule somewhere in the middle but you probably don't want to check all the pages... Here's what he said: "I can never decide on what race I want to peak for and just want to run races every other week. I work 60 hours a week and don't have time to do doubles. Will I race well off a schedule like this or will I get slower? Non race week Mon 3x1500 or 6x800 plus warmup and cooldown Tue 90 minute aerobic run Wed 5k tempo time trial plus warmup and cooldown Thu 60-90 minute aerobic run Fri 30-60 minute aerobic run plus 6-10x100 strides Sat 5k tempo/time trial plus warmup and cooldown Sun 90-120 minute aerobic run Race week Mon 30-60 minute aerobic run plus 6-10x100 sprints Tue Easy Fartlek run of 45-60 minutes Wed 1500 time trial plus warmup and cooldown Thu 40-60 minute aerobic run plus 4-6x100 sprints Fri 30-40 minute aerobic run Sat race 3k- half marathon Sun 90-120 aerobic run" My understanding of RW/NRW schedules is slightly different from "Continuation of races". If you want to race year-round, RW/NRW works great. Basically, you mis all the ingredients: reps, hills (if you want like Deek did), sprints/strides, tempo/time trial and long run; for NRW schedule. You drop the volume and do some short, sharp stuff for RW. Continuation of races is more or less race-week continuously. It becomes important to race almost every week (I'm talking about the distance up to 5k mainly) to keep you sharp and also important to continue adequate jogging for aerobic maintenance. Bear in mind, depending on the level of your conditioning, you can continue racing like this for a period of time. Seasoned veterans, or someone with very good base, can race continuously like this for a couple of months; whereas younger athletes or someone with limited aerobic base, such schedule is not quite recommended. You know when you are running out of the base. You're trying harder but you're getting slower. Most people do more speed because you're getting "slower" but the actual fact is you need to go back and rebuild your aerobic base. |
| oasis |
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Thanks Nobby, I have a few questions, so after your peak race you just continue using the race week format. I would probably be racing every other week because I don't race alot of 3k and under races. Why would you do a 1500m time trial after a fartlek day. How would the following look for bi-weekly races of 5k to 1/2 marathon: Non/Race Week Mon - 30-60 min aerobic run w/ 10x100m Tues - intervals (not sure what? 3x1500m or 6x800m seems too difficult for this phase) Wed - 30-60min aerobic run Thurs - fartlek or tempo run Fri - 30-60min aerobic run w/ 10x100m Sat - 60min aerobic run Sun - 90 min aerobic run Race Week Mon - 40min aerobic run w/ 10x100m Tues - short reps maybe 8x200m Wed - 30-60 aerobic run Thurs - 40min aerobic run w/ 10x100m Fri - 30min easy Sat - rest or 30 min easy Sun - race (5k - 1/2 marathon) |
| Nobby |
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They look fine. I might shuffle thing around just a bit though. The idea of RW/NRW schedule is that you follow NRW when you don't race (da!) and continue this pattern (as Deek did). It's a good mixture and well-balanced schedule (bear in mind, if needed, you can and sometimes should change it according to the individual's needs). And when the race nears, switch to RW, basically decrease the volume and sharpen with shorter, sharper work. Depending on the individual and the background, you may want to do NRW twice (for two weeks) as a taper. In your case, if you know that you'd be racing approximately every other week, I will lighten the NRW schedule a bit so you won't tax yourself too much. Non/Race Week Mon - 30-60 min aerobic run w/ 10x100m (strides) Tues - intervals (8~12x200) Wed - 30-60min aerobic run Thurs - fartlek or tempo run Fri - 30-45min aerobic run w/ 3~5x200m Sat - 3000m time trial Sun - 90 min aerobic run If you're going to race farily frequently, you probably want to keep yourself farily sharp with 200m reps instead of 800. Besides, long reps one week and race the next might tire yourself too much. 3k tt might sharpen you as well. Bear in mind, though, that it is essential that you would HAVE built adequate aerobic base before you move on to such schedule and racing. Race Week Mon - 40min aerobic run w/ 10x100m (fast!) Tues - 30~45 easy fartlek Wed - 30-60 aerobic run Thurs - 1500m time trial Fri - 30min easy or rest Sat - 30min easy w/ 3x200 Sun - race (5k - 1/2 marathon Monday's 100s should be done very fast; these are NOT strides. Easy fartlek, as of your question, should be done easy. Lydiard classified fartlek as hard fartlek (variation for intervals) or easy fartlek (real "speed play"). The latter should be done playfully; just stretch out and stride out with plenty of recovery. You can just jog and do some strides but why structure so much? Enjoy the workout. 1500m tt would also act as a sharpening. Lydiard might have put easy jog or rest the day before the race but it usually takes two days to feel the actual effect of training so, if you're going to take a day off, do it two days before. I'm writing this with your image in my head being a young developing athlete. So this is probably a lighter side. But then again, it's always better to undertrain and overtrain... You can alter day-to-day training according to your background. Make sure you do easy workout easy and sharpening workout fast! If you jog for an hour fairly hard followed by farily heavy dose of repetition at LT pace or whatever then head for the race, you'll basically be racing tired. Know when to train hard and when to train easy; when to go slow and when to go fast. Also know when to train hard and when to knock off your hard work and stay fresh so you can race. |
| Skuj |
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I've been a fly on the wall on this very, very interesting thread for weeks. Can someone please list 3 to 5 things that the ideas / programs of Daniels and Lydiard have in common, and 3 to 5 things that differ? Much more soon, I'm sure..... Keep it coming! :) |
| Skuj |
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sjm1368 wrote: "...always thought it would be great if you could just get a couple of the top distance coaches/athletes together and just let them talk, debate, whatever. I would have payed a lot to see a transcript of someone like Lydiard sitting down and talking with Peter Coe." Yeah, that would be fascinating. Lydiard is hardly mentioned by Coe / Martin. They do state that they tend not to agree with many things that could be considered Lydiard. Morroccan school loves Coe / Martin. Cabral often tells us how little Lydiard is followed these days. And then there is Roger Bannister methods.... I always try to identify "concepts that are important", recognizing that individual training details will be vastly different in the following of these concepts. What monumentally important concepts in training can we identify, which will bring maximum succeess? This thread really has been all about that. A superb, superb thread by the way. So glad that jtupper joined in! |
| Skuj |
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Nobby wrote: "And also against ALL the popular arguments, I also believe even-paced running, with the second half evry slightly faster, is physiologically most effective way to run 800m which Borzakowski seems to do (as did Dave Wottle)." Sorry bud, but I couldn't disagree with you more. Neither Wottle nor Borzy did / do this by the way. The 800 is rather like the 400. Run hard, hang on. In a WR pace, NO ONE will ever "kick" in 800m. The physiolgy of a 100sec effort dictates this profile. |
| ronin |
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Just watch his last 200m split of OG race, in that one- check out the 400m split- it was run in negative split. No one was talking about WR pace, just 2 individuals who can/could accelerate in the 800m. |
| oasis |
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The 3000m and 1500m time trial, what pace/effort should I run these. Thanks again for the advice. |
| jsquire |
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When Wottle tied the WR, his splits were 52.9 / 51.4. I cannot find specific splits for Wottle's OG victory (they're out there somewhere!) but I remember they were remarkably even, which I might add was unplanned. On the other hand, the only other post-WWII record with negative splits was Ryun's 880y WR. When we get further than 800m, then even splits are the norm, according to what I've read. This doesn't mean positive splits are the best way to run the 800m, but merely that they are by far the norm. |
| ronin |
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That kind of interests me too... Everytime I read about Lydiard, or his books, I remain wondering how fast those timetrials should be. Close to the peak- I was thinking very close to the race effort, however, slowlier start, no kicking at the end, probably no pacemaker, unless the purpose of the timetrial is to learn how to run on someone's heels. In the base phase- timetrial is more like a "tempo" run, even milder- at the aerobic treshold, not lactate treshold. Am I correct in understaning timetrials? Thanks for the answer, Noby et al. |
| HRE |
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The example I've always used on the time trial pacing was the 13:42 5k that Richard Tayler ran shortly before his 27:46 10k at the 1974 Commonwealth Games. The 5k is almost exactly the pace for an all out effort at double the distance. Skuj, Nobby's acknowledging that few people would agree with him in the "against ALL popular opinion" line. For what it's worth, the last time I talked with Lydiard, he said that he thought the 800 was the weakest one on the books and that he thought it should be at least 1:40. He said that if you took someone capable of running 400 meters in 45-46 and trained them properly, they should be able to run back to back 50s. |
| Nobby |
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Peter Coe, as almost all of the readers know, the coach and father of Seb Coe, has written an analysis of 800m race as follows: “For a better understanding of the 800m event, consider a race in which the winner has a best 400m time of 48 sec. and it is run in 1:43:50; the opening lap is only 50 sec., and to make matters worse the first 200m takes only 24 sec…The first 200m is off a standing start and as he will not achieve his VO2Max immediately it will be…run all-out by our winner…The anaerobic percentage will not reach 90% but it is obvious that so far he will be running substantially anaerobically and incurring a marked oxygen debt…Totalling 50 sec., this unevenly run first lap will average an overall 96% of this runner’s maximum pace for 400m. Again this is not reach another often quoted anaerobic content of 70 to 75% but will certainly increase the oxygen debt and the accumulation of unmetabolized lactates. Against this background he is committed to another hard 400m. The second and final lap is run in 53 sec. His average pace for the next 400m will drop to 90% of maximum but the effort will become so close to 100% that he will struggle to continue at this pace until the finish…” My dear Skuj; what this story reveals is, yes, you’re right, the modern world class level 800m race is run with the first lap being run several seconds faster than the second; but look what’s happening in your body. If you start out too fast, which you most likely will be forced to do anyways, you will accumulate so much lactic acid in your system in the first half of the race so quickly that, unless you are very well-trained, you will ruin your chance of running a good 800m race. It is nice to say that 800m is a long sprint and so exciting to see gutsy performance of someone taking off fast and hanging on, struggling to maintain his form and barely staggers to the tape. Often the race can be won this way in the US more or less because many people feel the same way as you do in this country and, luckily this country does not lack talents in 400m. If you want to run your 800m race this way, go ahead and do it. All I’m saying is that it’s not the smartest way to improve your 800m performance. Such mentality, same as “No pain, no gain” philosophy or “Gimme 50 push-ups” mentality, has destroyed more young potential in this country than anything else. Lydiard often talked about his experience of watching a bunch of high school kids running 1:50 880 yd way back in the 50s. “This country will become the leading force in the world with 800m,” he thought. What happened? Nothing happened. With so much talent, so many young kids with great 400m speed; we just don’t produce very many good 800m runners at all. The US absolutely DOMINATES 400m in the world scene! If 800 is just around the corner, a long sprint, why we don’t dominate that event as well? Another quote from Peter Coe: “…we see the…situation in which 400m runners who are not good enough for the top spot at their original distance move up to 800m without the requisite endurance background…Although sometimes called an extended sprint, modern 800m racing is too long and far too fast at the top level for this move to be successful.” In terms of pacing, I don’t have broken-down splits of Wottle and Borzakowski’s races and if you have it, I’d love to take a look at. I’m sure, in a practical sense, they both run the first lap maybe a second or a second and a half faster than the last lap. That, whether they like it or not, happens. But then again, when you look at what’s happening inside their body, and compared that with what’s happening inside their competitors’ bodies, you’ll notice that they are the ones who were “least anaerobic” or “slowed down the least.” Peter Coe goes on and comments: “…It can never be a sharp finishing kick when the pace is well under 1:45—nearly always the victory will go to the runner who slows the least. Often what looks like the victor speeding up is the others slowing down more.” |
| HRE |
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Actually, for shorter races, say a mile, I'd be inclined to have the time trials be longer than half the race distance. For the mile, I'd say do 1320 or so at race pace and for the 3,000, perhaps a 2000 meter time trial. |
| Nobby |
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How's this one: "challenging, but controlled." This is the phrase Dick Brown often uses. You should run them fast but no kick at the end to "catch up with the predicted time" or anything like that. Time trials in the Lydiard schedule is often misleading and misunderstood. He used it very loosely. However, time trials during the final track schedule have very specific meaning and purpose. Assuming you've done all your homework, you should be able to run them fairly fast and/or hard. Should be done all by yourself because this will give you the pattern of how you run races and give you the direction of what you should do next. Lap times should be taken; if needed, should be notified to you (pace judgement work). If you're an 800m runner who likes to go out fast, I would put you to do an 600m time trial with the first 400m a second slower than what I want you to run in the race ;o) |
| Nobby |
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Ronin (the unattached warrior): You're pretty much dead right. You don't necessarily need to start out slowlier at first--in fact, there are cases that you might want to practice that (cross country races for positioning). No kick at the end because you don't want any lactic acid hang-over for the next day. HRE is correct about the distance for middle distance races. 1200 for 1500 and the mile; or 600 for 800 are often run. This is because the pace is much faster and you don't want to prolong the oxgen debt too much. During conditioning, TT is used as more or less tempo runs. He put down "time trials" because people started to just jog throughout the conditioning without any needed effort. I remember in Spokane last year, Don Kardong asked him about tempo runs. He said "Tempo runs or threshold runs are popular training method nowadays..." I don't think Arthur even understook the question. I told Don later, "His runners were doing 10 miles during the conditioning in about 55 to 52 minutes..." That was enough for Don. What we suffer (in understanding) from his lack of knowledge in terminology didn't seem to bother his producing champions... |
| oasis |
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In the race week example you provided there is a 1500m time trial on Thurs. If I have a 10k race on Sun then what pace do prescribe I run the 1500m time trial. If it is at 3k pace I think that would be too fast before a race, maybe 5k or 10k pace, what do advise. |
| Skuj |
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Nobby, I just wanna say that I am in awe of this thread. Have been for weeks. I've learned a lot and will continue to. Thanks to wise and knowlegeable people like you. |
| Skuj |
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Oh noo. Now I'm posting to myself. I acknowledge the above 800m dialogue. Do you think 1:39.99 will come from hi 49 / lo 50, or lo 48 / mid 51? I cannot help feeling that a quickish (but not overly quick) first 200 vice an even paced first 200 makes hardly any difference in energy availability after 600m, due to the nature of that first 25sec energy expenditure. Even the first 100m, which can be rather fast in 1500m, may have little effect at top level finishes, be it 13sec or 15sec. Sorry, I'm rambling.... Anyway, that's off topic a little. The great coaches.....what do they all have in common? And, is it possible that we sometimes over-focus on the details of one coaches system? I'll probably get my ass kicked here, but imho, USA has overfocussed on Lydiard. Music analogy. Sgt Pepper. Monumental achievement in 1967, and STILL wonderful today....but things have changed / developed / etc. Pepper massively influenced later music, but.... |
| Nobby |
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I'd say try 1000m instead of 1500 for now but do it "challenging but controlled"...do it fast (without the kick at the end). Forget 5k pace or 3k pace or LT pace or whatever. Don't try to PR every time you do this either though. This is a blend of Lydiard method and Japanese system. Japanese do this a lot--2000m a couple of days before the Fukuoka marathon is a standard recipe for Seko who won it four times. This is a bit of pepper in your soup--sharp and tangy. Really, go for it. 1000m (two and a half laps if you do it on track). |
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