Genesis Chapter 1 verse 1.
Matt Luke & John.
Praises be his name.
Genesis Chapter 1 verse 1.
Matt Luke & John.
Praises be his name.
How? Where did this come from? He didn't look too good just a couple of weeks ago.
Blazes! wrote:
How? Where did this come from? He didn't look too good just a couple of weeks ago.
Reindeer milk?
Prakel and Wynne are more of a surprise actually. Johnny has been on a world's team and his dad was a 3:51 guy.
Blazes! wrote:
How? Where did this come from? He didn't look too good just a couple of weeks ago.
This was a time trial. It was set up to produce a world record. There was world class pacing, on a fast track with little traffic. Given these conditions, it's no surprise that a bunch of guys, including Gregorek, set massive personal bests.
Sadly, there's no reason to think that Gregorek will ever run this fast again. He's still the guy who was 8th at Millrose and 3d at Indoors, and has only run under 3:37 three times, and didn't break 4:00 at Pre last year, despite being in the fast race.
It's telling that he set his old PB at the Last Chance Meet in 2017. That was another time trial, set up to give Ches a shot at the NCAA indoor mile record.
I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see him ever running anywhere this fast again. Unless it's in a time trial at BU.
5 comments in 4 hours, "hot right now"
That BU track is about 1-2 seconds fast for the mile. If you’ve run on it, you know it’s in that grey area like the Nike 4%, where you know you are getting some sort of advantage. Im surprised Nike hasn’t slapped a logo on it yet. I’m sure if someone did some research they’d find out it’s illegal in some way
Interesting article! Can definitely agree with those observations/calculations, as I have also run on a track with even more bank than BU that’s considered super fast for sprints but pretty bad/uncomfortable/historically slow to run anything over a mile
There’s something else that sets that BU track apart as well though.. the surface has more bounce than any track I’ve been on.. something you can clearly feel as soon as you step on the surface
Definitely. The part two to the article was going to be about the surface. BU has a wooden substructure, I believe, which is excellent for distance races (and not so good for sprints). Most other banked tracks have steel substructures.
Was he wearing Hoka spikes?
where do you come up with this einsten? it is a 200m track
Nice to see some equations to find how much different degrees of bank help. It's interesting to see that for a really fast 200/400 meters the optimal bank is around 27 degrees, yet Arkansas says they have their track banked at 60 degrees (though I think the degree of bank increases as you move to the outside lane, so I suppose lane 3 is a lot better than the outside lane).
But to be sure that everyone still realizes outside is faster, remember that runners do not run exactly on the rail. Assuming the runner runs an average of 0.5 meters (19.5 inches) off the rail on the turns for easy math and I think this number is very reasonable, using 2*pi*radius to see how much extra they are running on a full lap , a runner will run 12.56 meters extra in a mile race on an outdoor track as opposed to and extra 25.12 meters when running on an indoor track for a mile, this is because there are more turns and each turn adds extra distance when you're not running exactly on the rail.
So an indoor track may be capable of the perfect bank/radius ratio, but you're probably running longer and it doesn't fully make up for outdoors.
For a 300 meter track you're running about 15.5 meters more than a mile, which is 10 meters less than the 200 banked track, but you don't have the optimal bank.
Burnsy wrote:
https://academicathletics.wordpress.com/2018/03/08/theres-money-in-the-bank-the-physics-of-indoor-track-and-optimal-speeds/
The analysis of the article posted is fairly accurate, but misses a couple of points about the Boston U track. When I helped design the track facility, I wanted a wood base, not a steel base, as found in most banked tracks, especially hydraulic tracks, where steel supports are necessary. My reason was simple in requesting wood. The wood base absorbed and gave back better than the steel supports in my own experience of running on both types of tracks. Secondly, and this was something that Tracks West came up with. Their design had the rise of the bank reach maximum height prior to the middle of the turn and then also had the drop of the track come out more gradually coming out of the turn. Both these situations helped negotiate the turns better than the normal symmetrical banked tracks found around the country. I believe BU has the only indoor banked track set up in this fashion, an asymmetrical banked turn.
The only discussion that we (Bruce Lehane, Tracks West and I) had was at the optimal height of the bank. Bruce and his wife Lesley wanted a lower bank so that women would have an easier time getting around the turns, since they ran at a slower pace. I was inclined to a higher bank (not as high as our original banked track in the old armory), as I was hoping to get very fast 400m times, similar to the old Armory track. Floyd Highfill was one of the designers of the track and had advocated for a higher bank than Bruce and Leslie (she was the BU head women's coach at the time) wanted. We ended with a compromise and the result is the present setup.
https://www.abqjournal.com/231444/a-master-at-going-faster.htmlSo naming this meet the Bruce Lehane Mile Challenge is quite appropriate, as his input was instrumental for the middle distance fast times runners have gotten over the years.
The original track was surfaced in Rekortan and had bushings underneath each section that made the track even more resilient. However, after a few years the track began to separate at the joints. The track surface was rebuilt with a double layer of plywood, making it more solid (done by Beynon) and resurfaced with Beynon full pour polyurethane. A few years later, the inside lane was replaced with a new pour, hence the now more "pink" color of lane one.
As to comments about the track being short. Pure rubbish, as the track does not come down, being fixed and it was certified accurate both times the track was set up.
Include the setting where the stands are above the track, similar to the old Madison Square Garden setup and you have an ideal setting for good performances when conditions are right, meaning fast runners getting a clean run.
It has been very exciting to see the progressions over the last few years with the groups coming in and competing so well, setting American and now World Indoor bests.
Pete Schuder wrote:
The analysis of the article posted is fairly accurate, but misses a couple of points about the Boston U track. When I helped design the track facility...
Now that was a good read. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.
Do you know whether any other track designers are following your lead?
Time Trialer not Racer wrote:
Blazes! wrote:
How? Where did this come from? He didn't look too good just a couple of weeks ago.
This was a time trial. It was set up to produce a world record. There was world class pacing, on a fast track with little traffic. Given these conditions, it's no surprise that a bunch of guys, including Gregorek, set massive personal bests.
Get a load of this guy....
Ha, ha. Still waiting on Vin Lananna to give me a call....I offered him my knowledge for free. (Vin and I go way back to his time at CW Post and my time at Columbia)....
Most schools will go with the Mondo/steel setup because I do not think anyone makes the wood support tracks anymore.
Incredible, Pete! Thanks for the great response and info!!
After I wrote that article on the effects of banking last year, I wanted to do a part II (but never got around to it, ha) on the effects of surface/substructure, as like you said, half the magic of BU's facility is that wooden substructure.
Baynon and Mondo's standard prefab offer now is the steel substructure, as is the case with all the hydraulic systems. That steel makes for lightening fast sprints, but the plywood is brilliant for distance races. I didn't realize it was so rare nowadays to have wood, as it's my understanding that a lot of the old tracks were plywood (especially the famous ones that could be removed, like at MSG)! It was one of the striking things when I first got on our new system at Michigan, where you can definitely feel how stiff the surface is with that steel underneath. I'm curious how a record attempt for something like a men's 800m would go at BU. Would the plywood be too compliant for the rate of force they'd be applying? It seems like once you start getting around 25-26s for a 200m, you might want steel. That combo of a perfect banking for ~28-29s 200m pace and perfect surface for distance running definitely explains why the men's mile just pops there.
No idea that Highfill was a designer of the BU facility too! Very cool! Researching these tracks, I came across him as the designer of all the old legendary tracks like San Diego and MSG. That gradual rise of the bank to a maximum in the middle of the turn seemed to be a signature of his.
Anyways, regarding the substructure, I'm sure you're aware of the work by Tom McMahon and Peter Greene at Harvard in the 1970s, but for any LR folks who are interested, here's a cool article from Scientific American in 1978 about their famous "tuned" track at Harvard. They built a wooden substructure with dampers to have a surface stiffness tuned to that of a distance runner. The result was 2-3% faster mile races compared to the other tracks in the Ivy League at the time.
Pete Schuder wrote:
Burnsy wrote:
https://academicathletics.wordpress.com/2018/03/08/theres-money-in-the-bank-the-physics-of-indoor-track-and-optimal-speeds/The analysis of the article posted is fairly accurate, but misses a couple of points about the Boston U track. When I helped design the track facility, I wanted a wood base, not a steel base, as found in most banked tracks, especially hydraulic tracks, where steel supports are necessary. My reason was simple in requesting wood. The wood base absorbed and gave back better than the steel supports in my own experience of running on both types of tracks. Secondly, and this was something that Tracks West came up with. Their design had the rise of the bank reach maximum height prior to the middle of the turn and then also had the drop of the track come out more gradually coming out of the turn. Both these situations helped negotiate the turns better than the normal symmetrical banked tracks found around the country. I believe BU has the only indoor banked track set up in this fashion, an asymmetrical banked turn.
The only discussion that we (Bruce Lehane, Tracks West and I) had was at the optimal height of the bank. Bruce and his wife Lesley wanted a lower bank so that women would have an easier time getting around the turns, since they ran at a slower pace. I was inclined to a higher bank (not as high as our original banked track in the old armory), as I was hoping to get very fast 400m times, similar to the old Armory track. Floyd Highfill was one of the designers of the track and had advocated for a higher bank than Bruce and Leslie (she was the BU head women's coach at the time) wanted. We ended with a compromise and the result is the present setup.
https://www.abqjournal.com/231444/a-master-at-going-faster.htmlSo naming this meet the Bruce Lehane Mile Challenge is quite appropriate, as his input was instrumental for the middle distance fast times runners have gotten over the years.
The original track was surfaced in Rekortan and had bushings underneath each section that made the track even more resilient. However, after a few years the track began to separate at the joints. The track surface was rebuilt with a double layer of plywood, making it more solid (done by Beynon) and resurfaced with Beynon full pour polyurethane. A few years later, the inside lane was replaced with a new pour, hence the now more "pink" color of lane one.
As to comments about the track being short. Pure rubbish, as the track does not come down, being fixed and it was certified accurate both times the track was set up.
Include the setting where the stands are above the track, similar to the old Madison Square Garden setup and you have an ideal setting for good performances when conditions are right, meaning fast runners getting a clean run.
It has been very exciting to see the progressions over the last few years with the groups coming in and competing so well, setting American and now World Indoor bests.
Letsrun has still got it!
Thank you for the kind words and your interest. Should have started a separate thread, as this is taking away from the great race John Gregorek, Jr. did. I am very happy for him, as being a former Columbia head coach many years ago, I still follow them with keen interest.
The Highfill (Tracks West) tracks can be identified by their attractive colors, usually orange and yellow and they were often very fast, but slippery due to the painting of the plywood. Sometimes they missed their mark. Cleveland was an example where they had to set up the track, I think in an old Opera house or something, and the banks were so pitched it was lucky anyone could break 50 seconds. On the other hand when Tracks West came and replaced the old MSG track, which was wood with a spongy surface (which did not prevent Martin McGrady from setting a world best in the 600 yds) fast times became the norm. Same with the track in East Rutherford, NJ at the Meadowlands where Eamonn Coghlan ran 3:49.78 on that very fast 10 lap to the mile track.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9241364
Harvard's indoor track was built by Mr. DiNatale and his son, Mike, who still has the blueprints for that track. Our plan was to create a track similar to Harvard, but a bit higher in the banks. I believe Harvard has a 35" bank, but not sure. Their bank is symmetrical but has a wood support system. We also looked at the Reggie Lewis track and felt their banks were too low, but certainly good for high school racing and longer distance racing. So the compromise was for I think either 38" or 39" banking, but as I said, it was an asymmetrical banking system. We definitely wanted a wood base to get that true "bounce", something we had trouble with at the Old Armory, where there were lots of soft spots and the bounces were inconsistent, despite annual rehab work. That banks at the old Armory track were 5 feet high with only 4 lanes, great for short distances, but not so good for distance events, although there were some fast times there as well in the mile and 2 mile.
When looking at how Tracks West included bushings under the joints (there are 180 pieces of track and bushing on each corner piece and in the middle), I think adding those didn't really help as much as was thought. When Beynon and Company put down two layers of marine plywood when the BU was repaired around 2006, it was put down without the bushings and I think the track holds up much better as a result (more "true" bounce).
The tuned track at Harvard was for their outdoor track, where they used fiberglass underneath the surface. However, the constant change in temperature caused that track to buckle in short order and the track was quickly replaced with a normal base of asphalt. It was a great place for doing remote control car racing....ha, ha.
The other "tuned" track was built down at Yale at Coxe Cage, where there were square sections put down with each of the 180 pieces (sort of a frame and the squares inside the frame). I don't remember how many squares made up each section of track, I would say possibly 4-6. This gave the track a nice bounce, but problems occurred as squares would break, similar to how the old wooden tracks, which used 1x4 Canadian Fir pieces, would break as the spikes wore down the wood.
If you were at Michigan when Fred LaPlante was there, he might have told you about the old Columbia board track that we had initially in a bubble (Fred was my assistant in 1976-77). That was originally a board track from the 1960's MSG before the new Garden was built I think in 1968, and was used for practice and meets by Columbia, Manhattan, Fordham, NYU and St John's until a storm blew down the bubble. That was a nice fast track for an 11 lap to the mile banked track as well. Many of the great participants coming in for the Millrose Games each year would come up to Baker Field "Bubble" and workout to get ready for their events after flying into NYC. I remember Filbert Bayi coming up for a workout and he never ran slower than 5 min pace during his warmup, recovery between reps or warmdown, and of course, his reps were very quick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filbert_Bayi
So, many of the ideas and experiences of running and coaching on indoor tracks were incorporated into trying to have a really nice facility and track at Boston U. I was very fortunate that BU and the Architects allowed lots of input from both Bruce Lehane and me.
Sorry for digressing, just an old guy reliving some great experiences....ha, ha.