Don't see a huge up side in her career post-high school. Solid college career but nothing international. Waifish African girls will clean her clock.
Don't see a huge up side in her career post-high school. Solid college career but nothing international. Waifish African girls will clean her clock.
rojo wrote:
malmo wrote:
Rojo, I understand your loyalty to JK and all, but he's not all that. All conversions are subjective in nature. Wildly subjective, in fact. They are made up bullshit. JK's "calculation" violates significant decimal rules of math and science. You cannot multiply a number that is accurate to two decimals by a number that has unknown accuracy and come up with a product with two decimals. Seventh grade math. The only number that is precise to two decimals is Touhy's empirical measurement of 9:01.81. Any conversion is not accurate to 1/100s, or 1/10th, nor even 1 full second. Take JK's calculation, round off to a full second, then give +/- five seconds and that would be acceptable.
A better thread starter would be for you to just acknowledge what she just did. She's a real badass who just set a National HS record. Quit trying to insert JK's infinite wisdom into everything.
Just saying.
Ok about this?
Mary Cain ran a 2 mile - which is 3218.69 meters - in 9:38.68. If she had run that even paced, she would have hit 3000 in 8:59.37 so clearly a 9:38.68 2 mile is better than Tuohy's 9:01.81 in 3000.
It's not subjective at all to say that when someone runs a farther distance at a faster average pace than a shorter distance that it's a superior performance. It's a fact. For 2 straight miles, Cain averaged running 18.248 feet every second. For 3000, Tuohy averaged running 18.166 feet every second. Please don't tell me it's subjective that Cain's mark is superior.
I hear you, and you made a valid point, however, you just doubled down with another subjective statement. Was Cain 8:59.37 3000m, or even faster than 9:01.81? Without empirical facts your opinion is still subjective.
As with her 4:03 1500 m, people also seem to forget that Effraimson ran a 9:00 on an oversized track. Since she rarely seemed to race longer distances, it seems clear that she could have probably run faster--maybe even better than Cain's 2 mile time. KT is a phenom in her own right but seems to lack the gears of Cain or Effraimson. Klosterfalfen seems to have more talent than any of the above.
Is 9:38.69 the official time on the NOP clock?
Kev2, those gears aren't cast in stone. While Cain had an exceptional kick at an early age, its unknowable how Touhy will develop that part of her arsenal. When I was in high school those who could out kick me were like snacks to me within a year.
Touhy is the real deal, she'll make it on the world stage. Last time I had a feeling like this it was Evan Jager.
rojo wrote:
Ok about this?
Mary Cain ran a 2 mile - which is 3218.69 meters - in 9:38.68. If she had run that even paced, she would have hit 3000 in 8:59.37 so clearly a 9:38.68 2 mile is better than Tuohy's 9:01.81 in 3000.
It's not subjective at all to say that when someone runs a farther distance at a faster average pace than a shorter distance that it's a superior performance. It's a fact. For 2 straight miles, Cain averaged running 18.248 feet every second. For 3000, Tuohy averaged running 18.166 feet every second. Please don't tell me it's subjective that Cain's mark is superior.
Do you need a shovel to help you keep digging?
Only you can possibly have any idea why it was important for you to post your bubble bursting theorem when the kid was 3 strides beyond the finish line.
I hope it made you feel good about yourself.
some of you have already hit my on my responses to ROJO's points, but I'll summarize briefly
1 - you really can't have an en route time for a 3000 on the way to a 2 mile, and then back convert the 2 mile to a better 3000 time.
2 - age comparision!!!! I thought this was going to end up like East African age cheating with O'Katelyn Jeptuohy turning out to be 25. Please! Ironically, I dug into this a little and found that Cain's best performances actually were in her junior year of high school, so you can kind of make an apples to apples comparison now. Cain is indeed 2 months younger, but was already running under the training of AlSal at that point.
3 - no one argues that Tuohy is as good as Cain/Efraimson at 800/1500, but please let's not take these ladies 1500 times and extrapolate them to 3000's that they never ran!
Nevertheless, an interesting comparision does exist here based on Rojo's thinking.
Efraimson 16 jr 2/1/14 UW Invitational 3000m 9:00.16 4th vs. pros (oversized track)
Cain 16 jr 1/16/13 UW Preview 3000m 9.02.10 1st vs. pros (oversized track)
Tuohy 16 jr 1/26/19 Dr. Sander 3000m 9.01.81 3rd vs. pros
At almost exactly the same part of the indoor season in the same class year and at the same age, they all put up remarkably similar 3000m times in races vs. pros. So Tuohy's time puts her in good company, and the last 2 laps of this hypothetical race would have been a good watch.
From this point Cain and Efraimson went on to run 1:59/2:00 and 4:03/4:04 and to both turn pro for their senior year of high school. In the summer after her would be senior year of high school, Mary Cain went on to run the 3000 outdoor in 8:58.48 (7/24/14 at 18 yrs old) to win the World Juniors, which ended up her lifetime all surface PR and the US Jr record!
As Tuohy is actually still living her 16th year and Cain and Efraimson are whispers of recent history, there's a pretty good chance that she finds the 3-4 seconds needed to break 8:58 and make this a moot discussion still during the 2019 indoor season. The 1500 (and 800) times are way out there, but ya never know for senior year, if she finds some speed.
rojo wrote:
Quick Take: Tuohy’s run today, while the national record, isn’t as good as Mary Cain’s 9:38.69 HS 2 mile record
Tuohy is the new high school record holder at 3000 but Mary Cain ran a better equivalent performance at 2 full miles indoors at the 2013 New Balance Indoor Grand Prix. In that meet, Cain ran 9:38.68, which John Kellogg converts to an 8:55.82 for 3000 (Cain’s old HS record of 9:04.51 was actually an en-route time taken from that race, but Cain also ran a 9:02.10 for 3000 on an oversized indoor track).
And Cain was younger than Tuohy was when she ran her 2 mile. Today, Tuohy is 6,158 days old (16 years, 10 months, and 8 days) whereas Cain was nearly a full month younger when she ran her 9:38.68 as she was 6,130 days old (16 years, 9 months, and 10 days). It’s also worth pointing out that Cain’s 9:38.68 2-mile came in early February -- three weeks after her 9:02.10 3000.
And in terms of the greatest American women’s high school distance performance at any distance, that clearly is Mary Cain’s 4:04.62 for 1500 that she ran later that summer at age 17. That equates to about an 8:48.91 for 3000.
What purpose does this post have?
Why do you guys either try to worship of shovel crap on an athlete, in equal quantity.?
Why can't you just enjoy her performance in the here and now instead of engaging in a childish dick measuring contest?
I thought you were once a quality athlete? Why aren't you a quality person?
rojo wrote:
It's not subjective at all to say that when someone runs a farther distance at a faster average pace than a shorter distance that it's a superior performance. It's a fact.
Of course "superior performance" is subjective. The only objective fact is that Mary ran a (trivially) farther distance at a (minutely) faster average pace . . . in a different race with different conditions. Different track, different time of day, and different wind resistance. Mary had a pack of seven or eight runners perfectly strung out with someone one stride in front of her for 95% of the race. Tuohy ran most of the race without drafting.
JK, can we get a conversion please?
Oh, and Cain's 9:38 was out of this world. I just don't care to speculate about who is objectively superior.
GBohannon wrote:
rojo wrote:
1) The goal of the post is the samegoal of all of letsrun.com - to make it easy to be informed about elite running. Yes, I guess everyone could surf the Internet for 4-5 hours a day to find the links on the homepage and I bet they could convert a 3000 if they really wanted to but.
2) I doubt most people even know Cain ran a 9:38.68 2 mile
3) I bet most people don't know how to convert the two or take the time to do it.
Again, the goal is to keep you informed, help you be smart about running and most importantly save you time.
You doubt that most LRCers know Cain’s PRs? You would bet that most LRCers don’t know conversions or where to find them? I guess I disagree, but could be wrong.
I love you, Wejo, and LRC with all my heart. Maybe some here aren’t quite as diehard as me, but I don’t think they’re clueless either.
On behalf of the clueless, thanks.
Sorry to burst your bubble rojo but ultimately only lifetime PRs matter.
Cain, Efraimson, Tuohy - I do like technical specifics regarding best times and conversions, and, yes, a recordholder has a best. However, I'm grateful, as a fan of the sport, to witness Katelyn's contributions in more recent times and to celebrate each and every race. Even if they're relatively inferior to another's stellar, thrilling efforts, they are still stellar, thrilling efforts.
I hope all three ladies do even greater things in 2019.
rojo wrote:
Quick Take: Tuohy’s run today, while the national record, isn’t as good as Mary Cain’s 9:38.69 HS 2 mile record
Tuohy is the new high school record holder at 3000 but Mary Cain ran a better equivalent performance at 2 full miles indoors at the 2013 New Balance Indoor Grand Prix. In that meet, Cain ran 9:38.68, which John Kellogg converts to an 8:55.82 for 3000 (Cain’s old HS record of 9:04.51 was actually an en-route time taken from that race, but Cain also ran a 9:02.10 for 3000 on an oversized indoor track).
And Cain was younger than Tuohy was when she ran her 2 mile. Today, Tuohy is 6,158 days old (16 years, 10 months, and 8 days) whereas Cain was nearly a full month younger when she ran her 9:38.68 as she was 6,130 days old (16 years, 9 months, and 10 days). It’s also worth pointing out that Cain’s 9:38.68 2-mile came in early February -- three weeks after her 9:02.10 3000.
And in terms of the greatest American women’s high school distance performance at any distance, that clearly is Mary Cain’s 4:04.62 for 1500 that she ran later that summer at age 17. That equates to about an 8:48.91 for 3000.
It’s January 26th; calm yourself down.
rojo wrote:
kmaclam wrote:
"And in terms of the greatest American women’s high school distance performance at any distance, that clearly is Mary Cain’s 4:04.62 for 1500 that she ran later that summer at age 17. That equates to about an 8:48.91 for 3000."
But Efraimson did run a faster 1500 at Pre, no?
Correct. So I stand corrected. Efraimson ran 4:03.39 at Pre in 2015. That equates to something like 8:46.25.
And we here at LetsRun don't care whether a HSer is pro or not. If they are still in HS, we count it as HS.
Gotytom Gebreslase ran 8:46.01 at 17 years 20 days old on Feb 4, 2012 in Boston. I believe this is the indoor 3K U18 WR.
Zola Budd ran 4:01.81 as a 17 year old. She also ran an 8:39.00 outdoor 3000 while still a 16 year old. She also went 15:01 for 5000 as a 17 year old. She also ran a 31:42 road 10K while still 17.
I know she wasn't American, but if Letsrun is going for education and saving time and all that, here's the greatest Earthling women's high school distance performer at a lot of distances. The Americans are somewhat close as a group against this one girl.
Well, I for one am just simply going to enjoy the performance I saw yesterday.
Tuohy took 3rd against a pro field, set an official American High School 3,000m Record, AND beat all the competing collegiate girls that competed that day in all of the other various races. In fact, the closest collegiate girl was over 12 seconds slower that what Tuohy ran. (That was Caroline Alcorta in 9:14.72 from Villanova).
She looked like she was having fun, it was a great experience for her.
Lost in the shuffle is a pretty good effort today by Marlee Starliper badly defeating a college field.
https://pa.milesplit.com/articles/255273-starliper-beats-college-field-runs-920-3k
I think Budd still has the WJR for 3000 m 8:28.83
Technically Starliper's performance is inferior. I think she has poor coaching she races too much. No actually she should have picked a faster race in Boston or New York. I don't like the way she handled the media by leaving the track early. 3 Ethiopian girls ran with better form on a dirt track yesterday, so have much more long term potential. I don't know why hs has indoor track anyway, it just leads to burnout. JK did a conversion and it's not even under 10 minutes!!!!! 10 minutes sheesh, but it was only part of a workout - she stuck around afterward to do repeat 200s. Just in - her agent actually set this race up as a "sure win" for media purposes.
Seriously, another nice high schooler, she ran a good 1000 a few weeks ago at the NYC armory and I believe will also run Millrose (no word yet on this for Tuohy, as it might conflict with recovery from recent pro race). I believe she also is only a junior and keeps showing steady improvement. The 10 minuteish 2 mile is a PR and moves her from second tier, into the first tier nationally - nice effort!!!
I appreciate the perspective. For the old guys on here who remember 2013 like it was yesterday, there are just as many young readers who don't even know who Cain is. That crowd is under the impression that Tuohy is light years ahead of every other high school runner of all time. So to find out that there were high school girls, just a few years ago who were roughly equivalent to her, may make them realize that nothing is out of reach. That being said, Tuohy would be a top NCAA performer right now which is pretty impressive. Let's hope she continues to move in the direction of runners like Houlihan instead of runners like Cain. The NCAA seems to be the better route for US distance runners.
GBohannon wrote:
Fully agree regarding Efraimson’s time counting and that, time wise, it’s the best HS distance performance ever. Cain’s performance navigating the rounds at the US Championships and then the WCs was better, but not faster.
It doesn't make sense to say Efraimson had the best performance, but Cain's performance was better. By definition, there is nothing better than best.
I think you mean Efraimson ran the fastest time, but Cain ran the fastest series, or something like that.
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