Progression Runs & Daniels or Pfitzinger

Daniels book does not mention progression runs as any of his workouts. he has 5 pace ranges that he focuses on.

Have not read pfitzinger so cant say.

Daniels does not specifically prescribe progression runs in his training plans, but he does discuss them in the text of his book (at least in the second edition). From a Daniels perspective, a progression run serves the same purpose as a tempo run. The goal in a Daniels scheme is to get a decent period of time where you average threshold pace. So you would start off at easy distance pace and keep cranking down, maybe being somewhere around marathon pace for a mile, then 15k-HM pace, then maybe closing out a little closer to 10k pace.

From a Daniels physiology standpoint, this works just fine. "Standard" threshold pace is the point at which you have a material accumulation of waste products accumulating in your blood, but those waste products accumulate at slower paces as well - just at a lower rate. Similarly, they continue to accumulate at faster paces, but at a greater rate. So from a Daniels perspective, the waste product accumulation still occurs, it just occurs in a less steady manner.

I am a pretty die hard Daniels guy, and my threshold work comes through a combination of cruise intervals, 20 minute tempo runs, 30 minute tempo runs (at 5-10 seconds per mile slower than T pace) and progression runs.

Cheers Smoove. I am ok with cruise intervals and 20 minute tempo.

Would it be worthwhile doing some longer tempo runs like 40 minutes @ tempo pace +10 seconds per mile.

id like to mix up the training a bit to keep it interesting but still getting in longish 8-12 mile workouts mid week and long run at weekends.

should i start off with 2 easy pace miles then 2 marathon pace then 2 tempo pace and finish at 10k pace? is that a good workout for a progression run?

basically looking for a workout that will be good for 10k and half marathon but that i could extend or build on when moving to marathon later in the year?

I am a big fan of the longer and slightly slower tempo efforts. While I think most workouts should have a physiological. the mental benefits of workouts are pretty important too. We know that there is an important physiological benefit to the extended tempo run, but there is also a big mental benefit - the practice that you get concentrating on and maintaining pace for an extended duration. You get that from a 20 minute tempo run, but the pain is more intense and the duration is shorter; the extended tempo run has a discomfort level that is a bit more like a slow burn, which can be pretty useful for the 10k and half marathon (as compared to the more intense discomfort you feel in a 5k). Like you said, mixing things up can be really helpful in keeping things interesting.

I try not to be overly mechanical in my progression runs and do them off of feel. What you described above is pretty mechanical, but having specific paces for each mile is probably a good way to introduce the concept. But don't be disappointed if the 10k portion of what you described is pretty short lived. My sense is that based on where you are in your training, the 2 miles at M and 2 miles at T will take its toll and leave you with not too much left for the 10k paced portion. Like I said, I tend to do my progressions more off of feel than anything else. I also tend to crank them up too fast and end up with an extended cool down, so maybe I should take a page out of your book and be more disciplined in doing them.

I think the progression serves a great purpose and is something that is useful in pretty much any training program. I tend to do mine most often when I am coming back to workouts after a lay off and trying to figure out what kind shape I am actually in - I can cycle through various paces and see how they make me feel. I also tend to do them at the end of a cycle as a confidence builder as you tend to get a feeling of running down hill when they click just right. But if you are using them in place of a 20 minute tempo run or a short cruise interval session, they can be done any time in a training cycle.

As a side benefit, for those who follow a Daniels approach, they also give you the opportunity to touch on some of the in-between paces that Daniels does not emphasize (actually, that he discourages in any other context). Many people say that just because there aren't any lab studies showing the benefits of these paces doesn't mean that there isn't a benefit. So a progression run gives you a chance to touch on those paces in a Daniels approved way - a little bit of insurance!

Brad Hudson likes to talk about a variety of tempo paces. I don't have his book in front of me, but I believe he generally uses 3 different paces to distinguish different tempos, but he also acknowledges they can bleed together. He does use the classic Daniels one hour race pace, then a slightly slower 1.5 hour race pace, and then a 2.5+ hour race pace. So workouts for each of those might be 20-30 minutes, 45-60 minutes, 60+ minutes. He also assigns progression tempos that would start with 10 minutes of the slower tempo, recover 2 mins, 10 minutes of the medium tempo, recover 2, then 10 minutes of the classic tempo, or something along those lines.

And I think some of the older coaches, like Lydiard, would talk about the slower tempos being just as effective as the shorter ones, you just need to run much longer to get the same benefit. I feel like I became very aware of the Daniels one hour tempo from things like Runner's World when getting the most bang for your buck was always in one of their headlines.

My favorite longer tempo to do is 60 minutes at an HR +/- 3 or so beats of my marathon HR. Depending on the day or week, this gives me a pace that is +/- about 15 seconds of MP. Sometimes these end up being slightly progressive in that it takes me a little while to settle into feeling comfortable at that HR, so the latter miles end up being quicker. These sessions give me a feeling of staying in close touch with longer race fitness, and they also leave me feeling surprisingly good. During a buildup to a marathon or half I'll end up doing 2-3 a month, and the paces tend to drop over a few months. I should say that early in the season I will often start with around 40ish minutes and built to 60-70 minutes.

Thanks guys. where could i find tables for adjusting the pace on longer tempo runs. i have Daniels 3rd edition book but it does not appear to be in it?

how many seconds do i add to t pace for 30, 40, 45 minute tempos or what is the usual rule?

Thanks

It was table 7.1 in the 2nd edition. He took it out of the third edition as he moved away from straight tempo runs and more towards cruise intervals between the 2nd and 3rd editions. The adjustment to pace is done on a sliding scale depending on fitness. For a person who runs at about 5:30 pace for their tempo pace, you would slow down by 7, 11 and 13 seconds per mile as you extend up to 30, 40 or 45 minutes. Those with slower tempo paces will slow down a little bit more than that. Those with faster tempo paces will slow down a little bit less.

Interesting aside: from a Daniels perspective, there is a point of on the LT curves of people at various VDOTs where 60 minute tempo pace is about equal to marathon pace. That point is at about 6:15 marathon pace. For those who are slower than that, their 60 minute tempo pace is faster than their marathon pace. For those who are faster than that, their 60 minute tempo pace is faster than marathon pace.

I don't know of any calculators that break it down like that. And honestly, I think finding the pace on longer tempos is one of the great things about the art of training. You really need to feel it out.

And going back to your original question, playing around with progression runs is a great way to do this. Some runs you'll probably keep squeezing the pace down and get to the end and find you could have gone way faster. More likely, you'll squeeze the pace down quite a bit and find that you're still many miles from home and need to drastically re-calibrate. They're all good for learning more about your body and how it responds to efforts on a given day.