Should American milers hang their heads low in shame? Second best is 3:36 (3:35.90)? Seriously? Second best is 3:36 (3:35.90)?

I don't think basketball and football are where you'd look for good middle-distance runners. More like soccer. How many long-armed 6'3"+ guys or stocky 5'10"-6'3" guys are internationally great mid-distance. Makh-daddy probably only one.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I don't think basketball and football are where you'd look for good middle-distance runners. More like soccer. How many long-armed 6'3"+ guys or stocky 5'10"-6'3" guys are internationally great mid-distance. Makh-daddy probably only one.

Here's a few that come to mind.

David Rudisha 6'3 and 170 ibs

Jim Ryun 6'2 and 170 ibs

John Walker 6'0 and 160 ibs

Alberto Juantorena 6'3 and 185 ibs

Yuriy Borzakovskiy 5'11 and 160 ibs

Andrew Wheating 6'5 and 185 ibs

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I don't think basketball and football are where you'd look for good middle-distance runners. More like soccer. How many long-armed 6'3"+ guys or stocky 5'10"-6'3" guys are internationally great mid-distance. Makh-daddy probably only one.

Well there are plenty of body types in all those team sports but if you want to say football (soccer) is where you'd find the distance talent then that's fine by me. Point is, bigger more popular sports suck away talent from athletics and that's a common sense assumption.

Marquise Goodwin even decided to do the long jump in his off season from the NFL, jumped 8.45., went to the Olympics because he had a personal dream to do so.

How many more with talent just don't bother/no desire? No idea of their potential.

While we cannot overlook the family connection in both genetic disposition for running and great coaching/family connections, I do think its somewhat shameful that no one trains like Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, Bekele, Saif Shaheen (formerly Stephen Cherono), El G, Peter Snell, Jim Ryan, Steve Scott, etc. Galen Rupp is probably the only current American male training at that level.

I don't think we should make too much of the times recorded during an even-numbered non-Olympic year. Let's see what happens this year.

rojo wrote:

So I saw the other thread bemoaning the fact that the #2 US marathoner only ran 2:12 this year. It got me thinking. Why doesn't anyone talk about the US men's 1500 runners? Centrowitz ran 3:31.77 but no one else came within 4 seconds of him (Hunter 3:35.90)? Isn't that basically the same type of ineptitude? I mean a second a lap is a lot.

My intution was pretty accurate. If you go to McMillan's calculator, it says that a 3:35.90 1500 is equivalent to a 2:11:40 marathon. JK has it equal to a 2:11:30.

Rojo

PS. I put my thread as a question I don't believe they should hang their heads in shame. They are doing the best they can.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9180324

I don’t think this is a good comparison. A 3:52-53 mile is solid. 2:12 hasn’t been a good marathon time in 50 years.

Quick math also says:

1500m = 3:35.90 - 3:26.00 = 9.90

0.66 seconds per 100m slower than WR

Marathon = 2:12:24 - 2:01:38 = 11:46

1.67 seconds per 100m slower than WR

So, our second best marathoner is losing 6.68 seconds per lap to Kipchoge. And would be LAPPED once every ~10 laps.

Imagine our second best 5k guy getting lapped after 10 laps or our 2nd best 10k guy getting lapped twice after 20 laps. That’s the equivalent marathon performance.

The only American miler who should be hanging his head in shame is Gabe Jennings. The man retired too early! I have no doubt that he would make the 2020 US Olympic team in the 1500 if had stuck around.

I will speak from experience, football and basketball take away ALOT OF TALENT from running. I went to a city public high school. We had a soccer player join sophomore year that ran sub 5 min off no mileage and went 4:30/sub 10 in junior year on 30 miles a week. Another guy who ran 2:00 for the 800 m with just 2-3 mile warm ups and intervals. And we had folks in other schools with virtuallly no coaching running 2:05. I am not saying these folks are Drew Hunter or even have the potential to be NCAA runners but we are def losing talent.

Justyn Knight was the same too I think. I’ll tell you there are many white men that can run tough but they don’t have the program of the wealthy prep schools. In some schools, cross country is DANGEROUS. There isn’t dedicated coaching so ppl actually end up injured. Also Justyn Knight is not an anomaly. There is a ton of distance talent in African Americans but the “flagstaff” “Pre” “Oregon” culture isn’t their thing ... I would say for not AA’s too. Running is not school. Living like Evan Jager or Ben Barrows (my favorite ppl in running) is not cool. I’m a big fan boy especially of Barrows who convinced me to start running again in the first place from Youtube and Metroid Prime references haha BUT Going to “flagstaff” or living at altitude is not the future of American distance running for everyone.

We need to find a way to make it cool like Japan. Imagine if Facebook, Google, Uber throwing money at runners to train and stay in shape. Give a place for the 14:50 5,000 m runner who is too slow to train and score points and be cool. Imagine having these teams based in Boston, Atlanta etc. I know a bunch of dudes who were sub 16 5 K sub 4:40 off virtually nothing. Now they aren’t in shape. I also know we have GBTC etc. that’s does this. Great program btw.

Backtracking, I would say every large high school football team or basketball team has 4-5 guys that can run 2:00 or sub 5 for the mile in a season. Facts. Dudes running 53 seconds for 400 m in Jordan high tops. Get them to 20 miles a week you got a 1:59 800 m. Get them a coach and motivation who knows? So much talent we’re missing.

focus please wrote:

Your post has nothing to do with USA 1500m/one mile runners.

Honestly, his post was more on-topic than some of his other stuff. If you ever want an experience, search for his other posts. Dude’s...pretty far out there.

I bet if we had more shady Italian 'coaches' and Flagstaff caffeine heroes, then we'd be leading the world.

I agree with Hey What. If you look at medals won at the Olympics and World Championships since 2007, Kenya has won 9, USA has won 6, and no other country has won more than 2.

Gold Silver Bronze

2007 USA Bahrain Kenya

2008 Kenya New Zealand France

2009 Bahrain Ethiopia USA

2011 Kenya Kenya USA

2012 Algeria USA Moracco

2013 Kenya USA South Africa

2015 Kenya Kenya Moracco

2016 USA Algeria New Zealand

2017 Kenya Kenya Norway

Based on this, no shame necessary. We should be proud of our milers.

Talent is only a starting point. We have plenty of talent in the US, just look at how many collegiates break 4:00 in indoors every year. Then look at how many of this same guys don't run a single competitive race after college. You are right that we need some sort of economic incentive. Also the coaching and training is nearly non-existent. There is a difference in talent and training, as in some of the most naturally talented cannot run 100 mile weeks and really do what it takes to be world elite. Look at El G or Bekele, Geb, Farah, there's no way those guys could have been pro at another sport.

Mahavishnu1500 wrote:

Talent is only a starting point. We have plenty of talent in the US, just look at how many collegiates break 4:00 in indoors every year. Then look at how many of this same guys don't run a single competitive race after college. You are right that we need some sort of economic incentive. Also the coaching and training is nearly non-existent. There is a difference in talent and training, as in some of the most naturally talented cannot run 100 mile weeks and really do what it takes to be world elite. Look at El G or Bekele, Geb, Farah, there's no way those guys could have been pro at another sport.

Rojo was discussing the state of U.S. 1500m runners. By you bringing up indoor four minute mile by several college lads makes Rojo's point. In 1960's and earlier, 3:59ish one mile was nearly a guarantee for one to be an Olympian at one or more event(s), 800m to 5000m. A slightly sub-4 minute mile in 2019 means one has a shot at being a world class Marathon runner. For U.S. 1500m runners to have an opportunity to medal in world championship or Olympics, U.S. 1500m runners need to be at least sub-3:32 runners. U.S. used to have multiple sub-3:32 1500m runners. U.S. is still producing multiple sub-1:46 800m men so there is no need to panic.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I don't think basketball and football are where you'd look for good middle-distance runners. More like soccer. How many long-armed 6'3"+ guys or stocky 5'10"-6'3" guys are internationally great mid-distance. Makh-daddy probably only one.

Morgan Uceny was a high school baller.

Analysis wrote:

I agree with Hey What. If you look at medals won at the Olympics and World Championships since 2007, Kenya has won 9, USA has won 6, and no other country has won more than 2.

Gold Silver Bronze

2007 USA Bahrain Kenya

2008 Kenya New Zealand France

2009 Bahrain Ethiopia USA

2011 Kenya Kenya USA

2012 Algeria USA Moracco

2013 Kenya USA South Africa

2015 Kenya Kenya Moracco

2016 USA Algeria New Zealand

2017 Kenya Kenya Norway

Based on this, no shame necessary. We should be proud of our milers.

Kiprop needs to be removed from this list, he is a dirty fraud. Lagat is really a Kenyan.

The American milers are soft and they’re more interested in hanging out together and being buddies than actually going out in the mountains and training their butts off. I would say a good 3/4ths were at Gregorecks wedding this weekend all getting drunk and talking about all the fun they had racing each other in obscure little European meets last summer all on their sponsors dime.

I don't think it's quite the same that we have slow marathoners to slow milers/1500m runners. Because the push in the marathon is for records, the way you win at the marathon is to run fast. The emphasis in the mile/1500m though is to win and it has been proven repeatedly that running fast is not the recipe to winning. Most of the 1500m races are slow with fast finishes. Athletes never seem disappointed about their times when the races are slow or seem disappointed that the race is slow. If they are disappointed, they are disappointed in their ability to finish, their positioning throughout the race, and their general decision-making in the race. I doubt that most American 1500m runners are even trying to train to maximize their fastest possible mile/1500m. They are training to be able to be in the right place at the right time and make the big move when it matters the most and to do so better than everyone else. Now, if we had more time trial type races, I have no doubt that times would be faster, but look at our most successful championship runners in the recent era (Manzano and Centrowitz). Both runners have fallen flat numerous times in TT type races and are still exactly where they need to be in the big race. The next generation tends to be following this pattern as well. In some ways, it is a gamble that the race will play out as a tactical race, because if it doesn't, they are screwed, but when the gamble has paid off every single time for the last 20 years, it doesn't seem like so much of a gamble anymore. We will see faster times this year as people will have to chase some standards. That didn't matter last year with no championship.

Americans have to hit a standard in order to compete at the world championships or olympics.