So my brother and I are arguing about what Hicham El Guerrouj is “best known for”

ScottEvil wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

only he and his training partners/coaches really "know" what his workouts were. That 10x400 would indicate a sub 3:40 mile and I don't believe it. He was not that good.

We'll never know what he would have done with people to chase.

Think about Andrew Wheating at Monaco in 2010. El G never had that -- people clearly out further ahead to chase. Ngeny and Lagat and El G were neck in neck but I think there's something unique for PR-setting about having someone a second or two clear to chase.

T OP, El G is best known as the world record holder in the mile (in the US) and the 1500 (everywhere else). if Americans know his name, it's because when a fast mile is run, they'll often say or show the WR and WR holder (on the scoreboard or over the announcements). Elsewhere, 1500.

How many mile world record holders had 'somebody to chase' in their WRs? Even Coe, Ovett and Cram usually only had a pacemaker for little more than the first lap. For much of track history before them, pacing was actually illegal and WRs were often set in Olympic finals, often the only time the best in the world faced any real competition. El G had the 1000m world record holder, likely as juiced up on EPO as he was, to effectively pace him nearly all the way.

Having said that, Steve Cram expected El G to run 3:40 for the mile on the basis of his 3:26.00 1500.

If Herb Elliott could solo run 3:35 from the first lap in an Olympic 1500 final on a crappy track in crappy shoes at the age of 22 sixty years ago, I wonder what he'd do on a mondo track in modern shoes, with pacing to the bell, in his prime (which we never saw because he retired soon after his Olympic gold undefeated)? Or Bannister hadn't also retired before his prime and had ran more than 25 miles a week as a part-time amateur?

How many advantages did El G need? Maybe if he had hung around for a few more years when the new form of EPO came out (CERA, that Ramzi was busted for), he might have ran 3:23/3:40 (but would likely have been caught as Ramzi was, because testing had begun then)?

3:40 is 3:25.0 through 1500m. There is no way El G would have run that and no reason why Cram would think he could after the 3:26.00.

Maybe El G could have run 3:24 like he thought, but for me he ran 3:26 enough times to prove that was pretty much his limit.

Just like Johnson in the 400 claiming he could run 42 but got stuck at 43 low.

El G ran 3:26.00, 3:26.12, 3:26.45, 3:26.89, 3:26.96, 3:27.2, 3:27.3, 3:27.5... I really think if he was going to run 3:23 or 3:24 he would have done.

Coevett wrote:

If Herb Elliott could solo run 3:35 from the first lap in an Olympic 1500 final on a crappy track in crappy shoes at the age of 22 sixty years ago, I wonder what he'd do on a mondo track in modern shoes, with pacing to the bell, in his prime (which we never saw because he retired soon after his Olympic gold undefeated)? Or Bannister hadn't also retired before his prime and had ran more than 25 miles a week as a part-time amateur?

Crap logic as usual.

Why aren't your heroes J. Ingebrigtsen, J. Wightman, C. Grice, C. O'Hare, etc., running sub-3:30 on mondo track in modern shoes, with so many people pacing them to the bell and beyond?

O.K., I was slightly mistaken - Cram thought El G would run 3:41 for the Mile :

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

If Herb Elliott could solo run 3:35 from the first lap in an Olympic 1500 final on a crappy track in crappy shoes at the age of 22 sixty years ago, I wonder what he'd do on a mondo track in modern shoes, with pacing to the bell, in his prime (which we never saw because he retired soon after his Olympic gold undefeated)? Or Bannister hadn't also retired before his prime and had ran more than 25 miles a week as a part-time amateur?

Crap logic as usual.

Why aren't your heroes J. Ingebrigtsen, J. Wightman, C. Grice, C. O'Hare, etc., running sub-3:30 on mondo track in modern shoes, with so many people pacing them to the bell and beyond?

Eh?

Because only Jakob is on the same level as Herb Elliott, and he surely will be running sub 3:30 in the next few years?

3:41.9 maybe. Not 3:40, quite a difference. If he went through 1500m in 3:27 and came home strong then 3:42 flat is possible. Maybe Cram was getting excited.

Also El G ran 3:43 which is most definitely 17 seconds slower than 3:26, not 15.

El G might have run 3:25 on the perfect day and 3:42 on the perfect day. I don't see why people think a guy who demonstrated 3:26 ability after many very well paced attempts in great weather would suddenly run 3:24. He literally tried to break the WR on many attempts.

Coevett wrote:

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Crap logic as usual.

Why aren't your heroes J. Ingebrigtsen, J. Wightman, C. Grice, C. O'Hare, etc., running sub-3:30 on mondo track in modern shoes, with so many people pacing them to the bell and beyond?

Eh?

Because only Jakob is on the same level as Herb Elliott, and he surely will be running sub 3:30 in the next few years?

A few Kenyans (and Filip) are above Herb's level (what an amazing athlete he was!), and yet...

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Eh?

Because only Jakob is on the same level as Herb Elliott, and he surely will be running sub 3:30 in the next few years?

A few Kenyans (and Filip) are above Herb's level (what an amazing athlete he was!), and yet...

I have no doubt that Herb Elliott would indeed be a 3:30 or sub 3:30 type if he ran in the modern era. However I just don't see why coevett elevates his cherry picked heroes of the past to be better than any other runner ever seen, particularly Kenyans.

Now according to you Jakob is the best 1500m runner currently, despite literally everyone else that runs the distance right now...?? It's bizarre. Fillip ran 3:30.0, manangoi ran 3:29 and Cheryiout ran 3:28 yet you claim that Jakob is the only one on the same level as the Olympic champion of 1960 and multiple times world record holder. Why?

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Eh?

Because only Jakob is on the same level as Herb Elliott, and he surely will be running sub 3:30 in the next few years?

A few Kenyans (and Filip) are above Herb's level (what an amazing athlete he was!), and yet...

How do you know they are above Herb's level? Herb was a once in a generation talent. If you disagree we'll have to just disagree. I doubt if guys like Charlie Grice, fantastic runners that they are, would claim to be on the same level of a guy who could solo run a WR in an Olympic final.

Or put it another way - do you think Jake Wightman could have been transported back to the Rome final in 1960 at age 22 and put on Elliott's shoes and proceeded to solo run a 3:35 WR? Given that Wightman's pb at age 22 was still 3:35, I doubt it.

The point I was making anyway was that I get slammed for claiming that old legends could have ran faster, and here was somebody claiming that El G could have ran faster....if only. Jesus, there's a reason why El G's records might stand for another 50 years, and it's not because he's that much head and shoulders above every other runner in history by natural talent.

I agree. EL G had so many of his own personal pacers, who gave him very even splits most of the time, and he had many orchestrated attempts at the 1500 and mile WRs that I believe 3:26.0 was very close to his limit. And that equates to a 3:42.5 mile. I don’t believe he was capable of 3:40, unless there had been a new drug that was even better than EPO!

In fact his mile WR was practically paced and drafted up to 1500m by Ngeny, the 1000m WR holder and Olympic 1500m champ in 2000, with quarters of (EL G’s) ~ 55.6, 56.2, 56.1, 55.2.

They are about as perfect and even in pace distribution as it gets. I can’t think of any other mile WR performance where the differential between the 4 laps was so small.

Coevett wrote:

I get slammed for claiming that old legends could have ran faster, and here was somebody claiming that El G could have ran faster....if only.

Not true.

I agree with a lot of what you say.

You get slammed for coming across as a racist, Kenyan/Moroccan-hating person. You also get slammed for threatening to kill LRC posters - and that is really stupid of you.

Apart from that, like cotton shirt said before, it's mostly about the way you express yourself, because if you removed racism and violence from your posts, you would find some great stuff in what you say.

Let me try again: you have great, valid points. The way you express them makes people hate you. And that's not a good way to make people see your point of view.

P.S.: don't threaten to kill people again. That is dangerous.

No you are right, i don't think Grice or Wightman would have been able to do what Herb Elliott did.

But I do think El G, Cheryiout, Manangoi, Farah, makhloufi, Iguider, Morceli, Aouita, Ngeny, Sydney Maree, Lagat and a number of other Africans could have, along with Cram, Coe, Ovett, Centro, maybe Fillip Ingerbritsen.

Unfortunately you give the impression to most posters that all the African runners throughout history don't actually count, and so Herb Elliott or Cram or any of your other non-African heroes are therefore the champions of the sport.

Benenisa Kekele wrote:

Coevett wrote:

If Herb Elliott could solo run 3:35 from the first lap in an Olympic 1500 final on a crappy track in crappy shoes at the age of 22 sixty years ago, I wonder what he'd do on a mondo track in modern shoes, with pacing to the bell, in his prime (which we never saw because he retired soon after his Olympic gold undefeated)? Or Bannister hadn't also retired before his prime and had ran more than 25 miles a week as a part-time amateur?

Crap logic as usual.

Why aren't your heroes J. Ingebrigtsen, J. Wightman, C. Grice, C. O'Hare, etc., running sub-3:30 on mondo track in modern shoes, with so many people pacing them to the bell and beyond?

Because the majority of those guys (excluding J.I.) would have been around 3:42-3:43 in Herb's era with crappy shoes on crappy tracks. Works both ways. Take your "crap logic" and cram it up your cram hole.

Coevett wrote:

El G had the 1000m world record holder, likely as juiced up on EPO as he was, to effectively pace him nearly all the way.

Effectively pacing him nearly all the way while not leading a single meter?

reallity wrote:

Coevett wrote:

El G had the 1000m world record holder, likely as juiced up on EPO as he was, to effectively pace him nearly all the way.

Effectively pacing him nearly all the way while not leading a single meter?

Yeah I don't understand this, Drano said something similar also I think. I'm certain El G lead Ngeny the whole way and dragged him to a great time, not the other way round.

ex-runner wrote:

reallity wrote:

Effectively pacing him nearly all the way while not leading a single meter?

Yeah I don't understand this, Drano said something similar also I think. I'm certain El G lead Ngeny the whole way and dragged him to a great time, not the other way round.

I didn't say Ngeny paced him to the Mile WR. He paced him to his 1500m WR.

El G had two pacemakers for his Mile WR, the second of whom was the 92 Olympic 800m champion, and dropped out at the bell.

Compare with Seb Coe's 81 Mile WR (3:47) . He had one pacemaker - Tom Byers - and this might have been the best pacemaking Coe had in his entire career. Yet Beyer drops out with at least 550m to go, and slowed down dramatically in that third lap. So Coe went from behind 3 seconds ahead of schedule to nearly a second behind at the bell. The way he kicked in the home straight suggested he had a lot left as well. Imagine if Coe had had William Tanui that night instead of Byers. They probably would have been at least 3 seconds faster at the bell. Boit would have been burnt off long before the home straight, so Coe wouldn't have had to worry about winning the race (the likely reason he only kicked in the home straight) and would have just gone all out for the WR. With the kind of pacing that El G had the benefit of, never mind the better track and marginally better shoes, Coe could probably have ran sub 3:45 that night.

Lol.

He’s best know in America as the mile run record holder. In 2008, after running a great mile time in 8th grade PE class I googled mile run record. The first video that popped up was the mile record on the old YouTube. I think it’s still up to this day. In the running community , he’s known as the best 1500m runner.

It’s Definitely a real workout. The best runners usually always run past their limits in such speed workouts. For example I know Rudisha could have run 49.0-49.5 3x400 with 4 minutes rest Indicating 1:38 -1:39. Don’t forget that in training camps people also run faster at times because there is no drug testing.