Brogan Austin- "No MP training." thoughts on Tinman.

Kid B wrote:

Allen1959 wrote:

*That is assuming that LT pace is 1-hour race pace, and CV is about 30-minute race pace ...

Actually (adjusts poindexter glasses) CV is anywhere from 8k-12k pace. Most of the time people think of it as 10k pace.

This is kind of embarrassing.

Tom himself recently said that CV pace is 30-35 minute race pace. He typically refers to it as 30min race pace. Which is pretty close or faster than 10k pace for most non elites.

Wash your mouth before you name Canova again, you fraud.

Someone please ban this troll.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Kid B wrote:

Actually (adjusts poindexter glasses) CV is anywhere from 8k-12k pace. Most of the time people think of it as 10k pace.

This is kind of embarrassing.

Tom himself recently said that CV pace is 30-35 minute race pace. He typically refers to it as 30min race pace. Which is pretty close or faster than 10k pace for most non elites.

Tinman didn’t invent CV once. It legit came out of cycling. There’s a reason it is variable. It’s the fastest pace you can run while being at O2 steady state.

Best approximation is 30min race distance. Though for some it’s up to 40min.

Nothing magical here.

Rocket fire wrote:

Actually I think about a 2 hour run at 20 seconds per mile slower than your marathon pace is the best workout a marathoner can do.

+1

Absolutel wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

This is kind of embarrassing.

Tom himself recently said that CV pace is 30-35 minute race pace. He typically refers to it as 30min race pace. Which is pretty close or faster than 10k pace for most non elites.

Tinman didn’t invent CV once. It legit came out of cycling. There’s a reason it is variable. It’s the fastest pace you can run while being at O2 steady state.

Best approximation is 30min race distance. Though for some it’s up to 40min.

Nothing magical here.

Exactly. Nothing magical. That’s the whole point of his training. “Keep the ball rolling.”

A lot of people crap all over Tom for not doing anything special, but that is why he is as successful as he is. Why other coaches don’t have athletes train more modestly is a mystery to me. People know you should but fail to apply it time and time again. Maybe ball buster workouts and hearing what random (likely doping) pros do gives them confidence.

yes, no magic.

js is fraud.

check the ingebritsen docu, read tinman training posts.

run , catch breath, repeat. do sessions faster than race pace and sessions slower than race pace if you are targeting 1500-5k. add steady runs, some uphills and careful sprinting. take care on your body and mind. i would not allow the ingebritsens to play with the smartfone during the first and importantcouple of recovery hours. as a scientist and manager i know that recovery of the nervous system is important particularly in the longterm.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

I'm not arguing with any of the assertions made here about what Shorter did and didn't do. In later years he definitely was running that slowly and even slower. But it's interesting to me that he's now well known for things that he was not well known for when he was at his best. Either the accounts of his training that came out in those years were wrong, which could well be, or there's been a bit of revisionism going on.

The only person that knows exactly what Shorter did and did not is Frank Shorter himself. Maybe he is not here at LRC but if someone read this who knows him maybe can ask him to make a short comment here. What I have read about his training is that he often did the 15-20 x 400m at 62-64 sec and sometimes faster at the last reps. And his distance work was mostly around 6-6:30 per mile.[/quote]

What you're saying here is what we heard or read that Shorter was doing at the time. But yes, that's not certain.

I stand corrected about CV pace being closer to 10km pace compared to 15km pace. But it depends on the level of the athlete. For a fast guy, it is actually closer to 12km pace (as JK told me in college)...of course that might be harder to estimate without racing a 10km recently in good conditions. Same thing with LT. For a lot of slower runners it is closer to 10km pace than half marathon pace. But for guys who are close to 60-min in the half it is closer to half marathon race pace. As far as Shorter's training goes. In the book "Run with the Champions" (not sure how accurate) it was stated that his near weekly 20-mile Long Runs were "usually under 2 hours"...so sub 6-min pace average. I believe he also practiced some faster surges well below 5-min mile pace on some of those Long Runs. That helped him get that 16-18-mile marathon surge tactic down where we could drop a 4:30 split in the second half of the race.

Absolutel wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

This is kind of embarrassing.

Tom himself recently said that CV pace is 30-35 minute race pace. He typically refers to it as 30min race pace. Which is pretty close or faster than 10k pace for most non elites.

Tinman didn’t invent CV once. It legit came out of cycling. There’s a reason it is variable. It’s the fastest pace you can run while being at O2 steady state.

Best approximation is 30min race distance. Though for some it’s up to 40min.

Nothing magical here.

Kipchoge makes slow runs very slow for him, for the rest, made 100% the marathon pace like Canova does, he oscillates above and below slightly, from 97% to 106-111%. The heavy workouts are Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, if Tuesday is 97-100% then Saturday will be 103-107% and viceversa.

See the link below:

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http://i64.tinypic.com/2ir5302.png[/IMG

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I think tinman's own definition has changed over time. For my purposes, it's more or less the pace at which I can do 6-8 x 1000m with 200m jog, or 4min fast / 1 min recovery.

As far as Shorter's training goes, aren't you in Boulder? Perhaps you should attempt to look him up and ask. Maybe he could also offer some suggestions about how you can get one more OT qualifier.

Focused MP runs seem to be a modern concept. Partly I believe because runners used to be simply focused on racing various distances, not just the marathon. Also partly because you can’t really interval train at MP the same way you would with literally every other race distance. So where’s the overload with MP training? A run of 10-15mi at MP really shouldn’t be that hard....and running longer MP intervals like 5 x 6mi at MP isn’t very realistic due to recovery requirements.

I think the future of Marathon training may lie in those long super workouts like 5 x 10k or 10 x 5k or even longer. Then again I’m just theorizing.

Alan

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

jp88 wrote:

he ran 62:39 half at Monunmental half on 11/3. I think that correlates reasonably close to a 2:10 factoring in he wasn't really tapered or fresh for the half.

Correct.

If you plug 62:39 into Tinmans online calculator you get 2:10:28 which is what he said Tinman predicted. That’s how he got the number

Eh, the half doesn’t translate to the full. Just ask Tedesay, or Diego Estrada, or the current half-world record holder. The full is a totally different race.

Yshsjdhdh wrote:

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

Correct.

If you plug 62:39 into Tinmans online calculator you get 2:10:28 which is what he said Tinman predicted. That’s how he got the number

Eh, the half doesn’t translate to the full. Just ask Tedesay, or Diego Estrada, or the current half-world record holder. The full is a totally different race.

Correct, but it is a good indicator. Not perfect, but pretty good.

HRE wrote:

What you're describing, a group getting together for a run of 20 miles or so, starting comfortably, then accelerating later and maybe getting strung out, was very common. But I doubt that the people doing it consciously thought, "Oh, we've got ten miles to go and I'll do that at my marathon pace." You might well do that at your marathon pace, or you might do it a bit slower or a bit faster.

I would guess that the approach you describe was good for preventing over-training/injury because, as Shorter described above, each runner during a grueling marathon cycle cannot predict how he might feel on a certain day.

Forcing a scheduled marathon pace on days where the legs are not ready seems like a sure recipe for demoralization and/or injury.

Those seventies guys may have run a ton of miles but they seemed to know how to use common sense to get the most out of their bodies.

I agree. I believe that schedules and formulas are useful as long as they serve you but get really problematic when you start to serve them, i.e., make them an end in themselves. Mostly we focused on covering the distance and let the pace come to us. So you might run 6:00 miles for a good bit of a 20 or you might run 7:00s depending on the run unfolded.

Yshsjdhdh wrote:

HobbyJogging.com wrote:

Correct.

If you plug 62:39 into Tinmans online calculator you get 2:10:28 which is what he said Tinman predicted. That’s how he got the number

Eh, the half doesn’t translate to the full. Just ask Tedesay, or Diego Estrada, or the current half-world record holder. The full is a totally different race.

You are correct that the half does not always translate to the full.

My point was different. Someone asked how Tinman calculated 2:10:28 for Brogan Austin, and I answered that if you plug Austin's half marathon time in to Tinman's online calculator you get that exact time. So that is very likely the way that Tinman came up with that prediction.

My personal experience is that Tinman's calculator predicts far better endurance than I have.

However, Tinman has posted many times on his own website that the only people who are able to have their longer distance times match up to their shorter times (i.e. marathon equal half marathon) tend to be the people he coaches.

Again, I am not saying this. This is what Tinman has written.

I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual workouts Brogan did that are logged on Strava. Using Tinman's calculator, a 2:12 marathoner has CV pace that is 4:37-4:43. In his cycle, Brogan spent way more time at his half marathon pace(4:45-4:55) or ~105% of MP than he spent at this CV pace( 4:40-4:45). I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP. Any thoughts on this? Another thing from this training log, it looks like he ran every single long run at about 85% MP.

3-ish-marathoner-zak wrote:

I haven't seen anyone comment on the actual workouts Brogan did that are logged on Strava. Using Tinman's calculator, a 2:12 marathoner has CV pace that is 4:37-4:43. In his cycle, Brogan spent way more time at his half marathon pace(4:45-4:55) or ~105% of MP than he spent at this CV pace( 4:40-4:45). I presume this is because he kept getting more and more fit, so he kept getting faster and what was supposed to be his CV eventually turned out to be HMP. Any thoughts on this? Another thing from this training log, it looks like he ran every single long run at about 85% MP.

I think you are over analyzing this. I’ve followed Brogan since he won his first state title in HS and I know the coach that launched him. This is not the magic of Tinmans special training zones as much as it is moderation and some tweaks to shore up his training. I think Brogan is a guy that’s been grinding and overtraining but managed to stay healthy for about 8 continuous years. He is an intelligent talented guy who has managed to lay an incredible training base over these years and now we’re seeing the results. He said it himself in a great interview...he underperformed in college because he was habitually overtraining. That’s been fixed. End of story. No magical training intensity.