new study shows micro-doping can boost performance nearly 5% and impossible to detect

Answer me this right now, what prevents someone from running faster? Why do athletes train at altitude? What physiologically speaking happening? And if adrenaline is all we have to worry about, why don't runners just do this before a race?

Sand Dunes wrote:

Answer me this right now, what prevents someone from running faster? Why do athletes train at altitude? What physiologically speaking happening? And if adrenaline is all we have to worry about, why don't runners just do this before a race?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpMxpzfSRUA

Our energy output is controlled by homestasis/thermoregulation. Either the PED concept is correct or the homeostasic concept is wrong, the two concepts can not co-exist. The problem here is ignorance of basic phsiology. No famous scientist is going to admit they are ignorant, only the hard working people behind the scenes have that level of humility. So we get a barrage of constant misinformation from delusional attention seekers. Added to that is the fact that everything around the drug issue is about money and politics. Plus the fact that people just want to believe in the amazing efficacy of intervention x. They just want to believe in it, simple fact of the human condition.

You want the right level of adrenaline and that comes from experience and confidence. Injecting adrenaline is not in line with self belief is it? You have to break away from that adolescent fantasy of believing that everything would be better with whatever euphoriant or whatever. That's not a dig at you, but everyone who thinks this way, young or old.

It's not a question of what prevents you from running faster per se, but sustaining a pace, what Renato calls extension. That's what we train for. Better use of the eccentric contractions, better control of muscle stiffness which gives that efficiency. It has to be controlled for longer periods to extend that efficiency of movement.

Altitude training? Well it's not a blood boost as was previously believed. Does altitude help improve efficiency of movement? Mabye? At 2000 meters there is 20% less oxygen available. The partial pressure of the oxygen we breath is compressed through the circulatory system ending up with about 12-15% lower oxygen uptake (Daniels 1985) at 1800-2300m but running speed is about 93-95% of sea level pace over long distances (faster over sprint distances and about the same for an 800 race)

So maybe that helps runners and cyclists to achieve better motor control?

I think running fast for a few miles at the end of a long run does the same thing or any slightly glycogen depleted running at a decent pace. But Kenyans and Ethiopians are obviously doing this too plus they are doing it at altitude.

You have no education, Jon.

Sand Dunes wrote:

Henry Rono probably one of the last clean Kenyans.

You are an imbecile.

This should help you realize your error. But you don't want to learn, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-equilibrium_thermodynamics

No, non-equilibrium thermodynamics support the homeostatic model.

dopeology wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

Doping aside, what separates a 13:00 5000m runner and a 15 minute 5000m runner?

Efficiency. No-one run 15 minutes for 5000 without being in very good fitness, but the fitness of the top guys comes from super efficient motor skills. It doesn't come from a super develped metabolic 'engine' this is the popular myth.

Your 'engine' metabolically speaking is not going to develop, because it's already in place, but your motor skills require years of development. When people talk about increasing mitochondria, they are just talking pretentious nonsense. Optimal mitochondrial density is essential for every cell in the body to work efficiently. It's a bit like expecting a healthy pair of lungs to increase capacity, it doesn't happen. Btw my lung capacity is exactly the same at 56 as it was in my 20s.

C'mon..Jon; when are you going to knock this off and follow mainstream science for once? Aerobic capicity and ability to efficiently extract O2 from the blood to working muscles is one main variables for endurance excercise. It doesn't get any more simple than that. And genetics is another factor (involving aerobic capicity) that separates amateurs from sub-elites and from elites, and so on. In fact Jon, one fifth of us lack the genetic makeup for an effective aerobic response to training i.e. "low aerobic responders."

"Professor Jamie Timmons, head of systems biology at Loughborough University, developed a DNA test to establish whether individuals will fall in the genetic group which is ill suited to marathon running."

"Professor Timmons said: ‘From our work, we know that 20 per cent of people do not respond at all to training and in fact can get worse. They push themselves as hard as everyone else, but their muscles do not extract the same amount of oxygen."

"He told The Sunday Telegraph: ‘It is plausible that by pushing it though training, they get a maladaptation. What is clear is that there is no one recipe that fits all."

"‘These low aerobic responders would be better going to the gym to build up their strength and muscle tissue or taking up other competitive sports like martial arts or strength related sports."

"The test looks at genes which remodel muscle fibres to allow small blood vessels to grow in between and carry oxygen to the muscles during exercise."

Since you are avoiding my question, I'll answer it for you. Running works by blood carrying oxygen to the muscles. Your ability to run faster will be limited by the amount of blood you can carry to your muscles. Your ability to remove lactate from the blood. Muscular strength. And, glucose and fat burning ability. And, mental. The ability to believe in yourself.

Let's break this down:

EPO and blood transfusions: It increases the ability to bring oxygen to the muscles. This increases the ability to run faster because the muscles have more oxygen to work with.

Muscular: The amount of muscle you can retain and keep during the catabolic phase of training the faster one can run. The stronger one is during the race the faster they will be.

Glucose and fat burning: One drug that has not been ban yet, but has been used by many top end athletes is actovegin. First developed as a diabetic drug, it works by improving the absorption of glucose and oxygen uptake in tissue.

Mental: Drugs like amphetamines allows the athlete to work at a higher mental capacity and possibly override the brain signaling telling the athlete to slow down.

To deny that PEDs work is to deny the sky is blue.

ryyyyyyuyu wrote:

Sand Dunes wrote:

Henry Rono probably one of the last clean Kenyans.

You are an imbecile.

Here's why I believe this.

One, this was before the Italian cycling doctors and coaches invaded the rift valley.

Two, this was before running had money involved. More money means a bigger incetive to dope.

dopeology wrote:

No, non-equilibrium thermodynamics support the homeostatic model.

non-equilibrium definition:

absence or lack of equilibrium or balance : a state of imbalance between opposing forces or processes —often used before another noun

Homeostasis definition:

a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward such a state between the different but interdependent elements or groups of elements of an organism, population, or group

So some people aren't suited to marathons? Well it doesn't take a genius to work that out does it?

As for trainability of VO2 max, the whole area it open to misinterpretation. Can we talk absolute V0 2 max instead of relative?

Your ability for your muscles to extract oxgyen is a fundamental biological process, without which you can't metabolize the food you eat. Think about it before you reply. Think carefully and logically instead of recycling the same silly old dogma. Cosider that mitochondria are essential for cell respiration. And consider that people who talk about mitochondrial density are just saying stuff they think sounds impressive. It's pretentious nonsense.

Essential cell funtion is not something that elite ahtletes have and non athletes don't. If the education system could get past such reductive nonsense, we might be on the road to enlightening people instead of filling their head with reductive pseudoscience.

The Jon Orange diagnosis is... wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

No, you are projecting your own psychosis. I put the time in to learn how to apply different concepts and how the relate. That's what the problem is with the dope nonsense, it's just plain bad science from those who have limited knowledge of basic physiology.

DOPEOLOGY wrote:

The Jon Orange diagnosis is... wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

No, you are projecting your own psychosis. I put the time in to learn how to apply different concepts and how the relate. That's what the problem is with the dope nonsense, it's just plain bad science from those who have limited knowledge of basic physiology.

Um, you just doubled down on your diagnosis.

Non-equilibrium and homeostasis are the same thing. Yeah, OK.

No, your restating the idiot dogma and not paying attention to what I'm saying. Your body knows how to process oxygen and it has a thermoregulatory limit to the use of oxygen. You can't magically over ride that system. Don't you think I've been hearing this nonsense for decades? Use a bit of common sense, I'm describing why it is pseudoscience.

Amphetamines give an illusion of being more in control. This is well recognised in pharmacology.

You are just doing what all the reductive pseudoscientists say about running, ignoring the motor control issue. Running is a skill, the movements are controlled by the skill level processed in the motor cortex. Do some basic research on motor control. Do something useful with your time and learn some worthwhile information instead of just repeating the same old reductive nonsense. Do you know what reductive means and how it applies to scientific research? It means people presenting a thesis based on limited knowledge which they think is ground breaking research. All of the stuff I'm telling you and others is knowledge that has been around for as long as the training methods we use. DECADES. So stop arguing and learn it.

Nice contradiction wrote:

Non-equilibrium and homeostasis are the same thing. Yeah, OK.

No. Homeostasis allows heat accumulation for a limited time. That's why you get hotter in a race, but you still have to pace yourself withing your thermoregulatory limit.

That's why you have to slow down on a hot day.

Think it through instead of arguing.

Sand Dunes wrote:

dopeology wrote:

No, non-equilibrium thermodynamics support the homeostatic model.

non-equilibrium definition:

absence or lack of equilibrium or balance : a state of imbalance between opposing forces or processes —often used before another noun

Homeostasis definition:

a relatively stable state of equilibrium or a tendency toward such a state between the different but interdependent elements or groups of elements of an organism, population, or group

Therein lies the conundrum of pace judgement. But imagining (as Noakes tried to do) that you can push beyond the laws of physics.... well the blood boosting dogma ignores this.

So we have a situation where people make up numbers to pretend that blood boosting delivers more power. They are made up numbers, purely and simply.

Increase of oxygen allows the muscles the muscles to work at a higher capacity. How hard is the to comprehend?