Carbon Plate, speed aid or not?

Cool question...

Read enough, and you’ll find validation to your conclusion. It really is the foam.

Answered your own question wrote:

Read enough, and you’ll find validation to your conclusion. It really is the foam.

Links? Some people swear by the Zoom Fly FK

I have both. Bought the Zoom Fly FKs when they came out hoping for a poor man's Vaporfly. Definitely not for me. Zoom Fly FKs are much heavier. The React foam is well cushioned compared to the original Lunarlon, but feels kinda mushy like its not returning much. The other knock is the lacing on the ZFFKs - the last loop is too far forward - and its hard to get a good lockdown even when cranking the laces to stretch the flyknit. Needs another loop closer to the heel to prevent slippage (and flex the plate -- if that's really a thing).

Big difference to me is the VFs lower weight and energy return of the ZoomX. I've done a couple miles in the Zoom Fly FKs and then directly switched to the VFs and the difference is noticeable -- better pace at lower RPE.

Foam wrote:

I have both. Bought the Zoom Fly FKs when they came out hoping for a poor man's Vaporfly. Definitely not for me. Zoom Fly FKs are much heavier. The React foam is well cushioned compared to the original Lunarlon, but feels kinda mushy like its not returning much. The other knock is the lacing on the ZFFKs - the last loop is too far forward - and its hard to get a good lockdown even when cranking the laces to stretch the flyknit. Needs another loop closer to the heel to prevent slippage (and flex the plate -- if that's really a thing).

Big difference to me is the VFs lower weight and energy return of the ZoomX. I've done a couple miles in the Zoom Fly FKs and then directly switched to the VFs and the difference is noticeable -- better pace at lower RPE.

I concur. I “seem” quicker in pegs than the zoomfly.

Concur Steven wrote:

I concur. I “seem” quicker in pegs than the zoomfly.

because the peg 35 now has a physical spring plate just like the zoomfly and vaporfly, it's nike's only trick left now

That's just the zoom air unit, not a plate. Zoom Air does its own tricks to help spring you forward tho

The plate will help slightly because stiffer shoes increase economy. It's because the toes don't store elastic energy like the ankle does, so with a flexible shoe (or no shoe) you have to use metabolically costly muscle contractions to press the toes down as you launch yourself forward with each stride. A stiff shoe lets your toes basically become passengers.

Last sentence of the abstract results. Metabolic savings are primarily from energy stored and returned in the foam. CF plate acts a lever.

Research from groups in Calgary and Germany have shown that carbon fiber plates improve sprint and jumping performance as well.

Why did Adidas pull the plug on their pro-plate shoes back in the early 2000s?

adidas proplate wrote:

Why did Adidas pull the plug on their pro-plate shoes back in the early 2000s?

Because Adidas is really good at shooting themselves in the foot. They have produced some spectacular shoes that have been replaced by mediocre ones. Two examples come to my mind.

- Takumi Sen used to have a torsion system extending in the forefoot. That produced a desirable snapiness, useful when going fast (and when you wear a takumi sen, you go fast).

- Glide Boost 6-8 were considered the best training shoes by multiple reviewers, with boost in the goldilocks zone. With subsequent versions (supernova, solar boost-glide), Adidas went overdrive with boost (as if they didn't have shoes with more than enough boost), so now these shoes are of limited use.

ClonedDuck wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30460454

Last sentence of the abstract results. Metabolic savings are primarily from energy stored and returned in the foam. CF plate acts a lever.

Research from groups in Calgary and Germany have shown that carbon fiber plates improve sprint and jumping performance as well.

Does anyone know what models of sprint spikes have such carbon fiber plates? I'd like to try some of them.

sato wrote:

adidas proplate wrote:

Why did Adidas pull the plug on their pro-plate shoes back in the early 2000s?

Because Adidas is really good at shooting themselves in the foot. They have produced some spectacular shoes that have been replaced by mediocre ones. Two examples come to my mind.

- Takumi Sen used to have a torsion system extending in the forefoot. That produced a desirable snapiness, useful when going fast (and when you wear a takumi sen, you go fast).

- Glide Boost 6-8 were considered the best training shoes by multiple reviewers, with boost in the goldilocks zone. With subsequent versions (supernova, solar boost-glide), Adidas went overdrive with boost (as if they didn't have shoes with more than enough boost), so now these shoes are of limited use.

I have worn the Takumi Sen and the Champion Gusto CT.

I am considerably faster in the 30 dollar shoe.

Where do I find them? wrote:

ClonedDuck wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30460454

Last sentence of the abstract results. Metabolic savings are primarily from energy stored and returned in the foam. CF plate acts a lever.

Research from groups in Calgary and Germany have shown that carbon fiber plates improve sprint and jumping performance as well.

Does anyone know what models of sprint spikes have such carbon fiber plates? I'd like to try some of them.

Brooks makes a nice carbon plate MD spike.

Totally agree with the plate not the foam.

I am just as fast in my zoom fly flyknits as I am in the Vaporflys - both with carbon plate. Only difference is the vaporflys don't seem to beat me up as bad over 12-15+ miles, so I guess I get some faster paces towards the end of the race. Imagine that's the fancy foam.

Take this with grain of salt, but my half marathon time in late Oct went from 1:33 down to 1:29 in Late nov and the only difference has been the shoes (went from zero drop altra to Nike). I have not trained much differently or harder since the 1:33.

I did run a little half marathon trainer run with zoom fly flyknits last week and got 1:29 again, so...

gsimmons2005 wrote:

Totally agree with the plate not the foam.

I am just as fast in my zoom fly flyknits as I am in the Vaporflys - both with carbon plate. Only difference is the vaporflys don't seem to beat me up as bad over 12-15+ miles, so I guess I get some faster paces towards the end of the race. Imagine that's the fancy foam.

Take this with grain of salt, but my half marathon time in late Oct went from 1:33 down to 1:29 in Late nov and the only difference has been the shoes (went from zero drop altra to Nike). I have not trained much differently or harder since the 1:33.

I did run a little half marathon trainer run with zoom fly flyknits last week and got 1:29 again, so...

Age?

800 dude wrote:

The plate will help slightly because stiffer shoes increase economy. It's because the toes don't store elastic energy like the ankle does, so with a flexible shoe (or no shoe) you have to use metabolically costly muscle contractions to press the toes down as you launch yourself forward with each stride. A stiff shoe lets your toes basically become passengers.

Exactly. The shoe "ratings" and all the ridiculous foam added to shoes since the 1970's is what has slowed them down. It seems impossible to find any good shoes anymore, and especially shoes that don't screw up the legs, because foam shoes jar the legs far more than stiff ones do.

The material doesn't matter, as long as it's light and stiff with no foam.

The king of Siam wrote:

So, has anyone ran in the new Zoomfly flyknit yet? The reviews I’ve read do not mention any increase in speed. The new zoomfly has a near identical plate to the 4%.

Is it making you faster?

If not, then the plate in the 4% is not making you faster. I have ran in the 4%, and 10 miles plus they make a huge difference in terms of speed.

Its not the plate. It’s the foam.

I don't have the Vaporfly 4%, but I love the Zoom Fly Flyknit - perfect tempo run shoe for me. It feels a lot lighter than it is. I also seem to recover faster after long runs, to which I credit the react foam.

I haven't actually raced in them, but it feels much easier to run 5:50 pace in them than in my Pegasus 35s.

The king of Siam wrote:

So, has anyone ran in the new Zoomfly flyknit yet? The reviews I’ve read do not mention any increase in speed. The new zoomfly has a near identical plate to the 4%.

Is it making you faster?

If not, then the plate in the 4% is not making you faster. I have ran in the 4%, and 10 miles plus they make a huge difference in terms of speed.

Its not the plate. It’s the foam.

Its no substitute for training. If you're itching to pr by a few ticks try it in some low key races and see how things go.