Is CIM the Vaporfly 4% of Marathons?

So Nike sub 2 project should have happened there?

I think if you had the same number of guys at Berlin with the same weather, they would run about the same times. There’s too much uphill at CIM for it to really be ‘too’ fast. I know there’s more downhill than uphill but that uphill is a big hinderence. Straight flat migh actually be faster.

Are you kidding? The same as Berlin? One course is legal and one isn’t. So no it would not be the same.

CIM is over 300 ft net downhill. That is NOT the same as Berlin.

I ran an OTQ at CIM last year and this year chose another flat (legal) marathon. I had better workouts last year in my build up and worked in a pack the whole race. This year I soloed my fall marathon in much worse conditions and was about 2 minutes slower than last year at CIM. The course is no faster than any pancake flat marathon but a pack of 50 guys working together (competition, mental factor, and drafting) plus perfect weather is easily worth a few minutes. Same thing would happen if 150 US runners shooting for an OTQ showed up to Chicago next year and had perfect weather. Turns out CIM gives the best odds for the combination of fast course, perfect weather, and good competition. The drop is worth maybe a minute but the small climbs negate most if not all that gain. It's definitely not 4%.

P.S. The vaporfly's are not worth 4% either (I haven't raced in them though)

This

Haha wha!!?!? wrote:

Are you kidding? The same as Berlin? One course is legal and one isn’t. So no it would not be the same.

CIM is over 300 ft net downhill. That is NOT the same as Berlin.

Illegal doesn’t mean it is automatically faster. Most would not consider Boston fast, unless you get a once and a blue moon big tail wind.

I truly think the uphill negates the extra downhill. Is it a fast course? Yeah. Is it so fast it should be illegal? Nah. And that’s not the main reason it’s illegal.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Haha wha!!?!? wrote:

Are you kidding? The same as Berlin? One course is legal and one isn’t. So no it would not be the same.

CIM is over 300 ft net downhill. That is NOT the same as Berlin.

Illegal doesn’t mean it is automatically faster. Most would not consider Boston fast, unless you get a once and a blue moon big tail wind.

I truly think the uphill negates the extra downhill. Is it a fast course? Yeah. Is it so fast it should be illegal? Nah. And that’s not the main reason it’s illegal.

There are rolling hills in CIM, but looking at the elevation profile, it seems like most of significant climbs are in the first half of the race, with the last significant climb at about 15 miles, and then a gradual downhill to the finish. And it's the first half the race, when packs are still organized and before runners start to spread out. In my opinion, that makes a huge difference, because a well-trained runner will still be feeling good for most of those first-half uphills in a pack, as compared to something like the Newton Hills in Boston at mile 20. It's great to have a gradual downhill during the last 10 miles of a marathon when things really start to get real. How is that not an advantage?

ThatAverageRunner wrote:.

I truly think the uphill negates the extra downhill. Is it a fast course? Yeah. Is it so fast it should be illegal? Nah. And that’s not the main reason it’s illegal.

It's the main reason it's illegal.

After running it today. That "ski-slope of a course" troll myth is completely false. Its definitely rolling hills. I was suprised how hilly it was.

Yes, this.

I find it amazing that people don't realize as to why it's fast. The Chicago example was what I tell my friends all the time...and they still don't get it. Weather plays a HUGE roll. Anyone who watched the race today could see the uphills that they crested, not just downhills. I agree on the drop, a minute max, maybe 30-45 seconds over the whole course. The great weather, championship $$$$ on the line, groups working together to go for a qualifier, etc...

Look at the profile again. The last 10 are NOT downhill.

Jimmy21 wrote:

After running it today. That "ski-slope of a course" troll myth is completely false. Its definitely rolling hills. I was suprised how hilly it was.

And this as well;)

Jimmy21 wrote:

After running it today. That "ski-slope of a course" troll myth is completely false. Its definitely rolling hills. I was suprised how hilly it was.

Yes - I ran it in 2016, and again today. The elevation map is not representative of the course. It rolls and rolls and rolls.

As others have said, it's fast because people come here TO run fast - power of numbers. And the solid chance of good weather helps. Plus, the race is just set up to run fast in so many other ways with all the little things - easy bag check, tons of toilets, warm buses to wait on.

darkwave wrote:

Jimmy21 wrote:

After running it today. That "ski-slope of a course" troll myth is completely false. Its definitely rolling hills. I was suprised how hilly it was.

easy bag check,

I wish i had known this. I thought the bag was just to put your trinkets from the expo in. I didn't bring it. I thought my ride would be at the finish, he wasnt. I had to wait an hout in 2" split shorts and a singlet for an hour while my body was having trouble regulating temperature from the race. That was about as brutal as the end of the race

Dur wrote:

ThatAverageRunner wrote:.

I truly think the uphill negates the extra downhill. Is it a fast course? Yeah. Is it so fast it should be illegal? Nah. And that’s not the main reason it’s illegal.

It's the main reason it's illegal.

Nah. Point to point. Get a stupid fast tail wind and records could get shattered. See Boston 2:03 and Hall’s 2:04 high.

darkwave wrote:

Jimmy21 wrote:

After running it today. That "ski-slope of a course" troll myth is completely false. Its definitely rolling hills. I was suprised how hilly it was.

Yes - I ran it in 2016, and again today. The elevation map is not representative of the course. It rolls and rolls and rolls.

As others have said, it's fast because people come here TO run fast - power of numbers. And the solid chance of good weather helps. Plus, the race is just set up to run fast in so many other ways with all the little things - easy bag check, tons of toilets, warm buses to wait on.

Constant small rollers alleviate redundant impact. For a marathon might well be faster that a continous decline.

ARRS used to have a speed rating but they took down the page. I recall it being fast but by no means the fastest.

Yes. CIM is a friggin joke.

I ran CIM in 2015. Missed an OTQ and ran a positive split 2:19:52 but placed pretty well (it wasn't a USATF champs year).

I think it had rained that night and the road was wet...the temp was okay but there might have been a little wind. I probably went out a little too fast (the OTQ standard was 2:18:00 at the time of the race). Thought it was a fair course.

I think the past 2 years you've got super fast times at CIM because of the USATF Champs depth (the big pack),

but also the weather was been darn near perfect. The temperatures looked really good (cool but not too cold).

Then the wind factor. Looking at the almanac from last year there was a 0-1mph wind during the race...essentially "no wind."

This year (and those there could correct me if I am wrong) there might have been a 2-3mph tailwind part of the way....so basically "no wind to favorable"

The rolling hills make it a "legit course" although it is certainly faster than Boston (in terms of the net downhill and how it plays out)...I think the main reason these courses aren't IAAF is because they are point-to-point and you can get a monster tailwind the whole way.

Blah blah blah... Only one question ..Would you run it in the reverse direction..? I’ll wait for your answer. I’m just guessing your answer would be .. NO. The course is not legit ... you know it and I know it.