Road Racing and Training Thread Week ending Dec 2 2018 (CIM edition)

Still Improving: Hope you don't mind more congrats! I just read your race report and I am envious in the best way possible... Really inspirational to me. Given that I wanna do what you did and given that I've chosen the same style of training to get there, I was really invested in your race!

I followed the RRT first-page-first-post breadcrumbs back to 9/9/2018 to find your first week on the 2Q and I'll be using your experience as reference (one of several) as I prepare for my race.

RRR: Good to see you're getting back. It sucks when anyone deals with injury, but when your injury takes away that brash confidence that lights up the thread, it's definitely noticeable. When you have some time, tell me to eat fruit, 10 pieces, daily, just so we know you're all right!

Coach Jeff - Next time I am back at work I'll take a picture of the training plan that I printed out that also includes a lot of pencil marks indicating how I modified the plan and what did each week. I figured it should give some perspective how things went for me in this last cycle. Note that the 2Q plan includes some big workouts and recovery between workouts is important. I still think that I need to slow things down even more between workouts to get the recovery I need. Or it may be my age that is more of a factor with the recovery. I'm pondering on what I should do for Boston 2019.

CIM Comments - It it s interesting to read what others have to say about the CIM course and the rolling terrain of the first 16 miles. I went into the race with feeling that my quads were not 100% and figured that is the reason why they have been so sore over the past two days. I've never had my quads feel like this after a race. Now I am thinking that it was the course conditions that have wiped out my quads. I just spent a long day on my feet playing tour guide for my wife in San Francisco. It is a good thing that SF lacks hills otherwise my sore quads might been doing a lot of complaining. I still have a longer post about CIM in the works and hope to have it done soon.

Still Improving wrote:

Next time I am back at work I'll take a picture of the training plan that I printed out that also includes a lot of pencil marks indicating how I modified the plan and what did each week. I figured it should give some perspective how things went for me in this last cycle.

Hooray! I was hoping you'd post a compilation of your training. Looking forward to seeing that. And, haha! about the SF hills.

outsiderunner wrote:

... I have been meaning to say that 17:09 is my nearer hurdle ...

OR - don't think for a second that went unnoticed. Yeah, kick a man when he's down ...

I'm so thoroughly interested in seeing what I could run there. I've evolved as a hill runnner and I wonder if the change in elevation would help with cramping (it didn't in Boston, so probably not). I'm very good downhill because of my running style. I'd either do really well there or have my all time worst time.

Allen - I knew you would notice. It is the biggest compliment I could pay you, my friend. I measure myself by your accomplishments..

OR - no offense. But if feeling good at end of a 5k you def did something wrong. You should be hunched over or laying in a ditch if it was ran correctly.

Still Improving wrote:

Coach Jeff - Next time I am back at work I'll take a picture of the training plan that I printed out that also includes a lot of pencil marks indicating how I modified the plan and what did each week. I figured it should give some perspective how things went for me in this last cycle. Note that the 2Q plan includes some big workouts and recovery between workouts is important. I still think that I need to slow things down even more between workouts to get the recovery I need. Or it may be my age that is more of a factor with the recovery. I'm pondering on what I should do for Boston 2019.

SI: I'm not the only one who might find that useful, but no hurry. Between your posts here and your Strava data, you're already more than generous!!! I appreciate the "heads upses" on the workload and the recovery requirements. It's just so useful that you and I are close in age and height/weight. Of course, you ONLY PRd by a MERE SIX minutes... I need FIFTEEN...

I know what you should do for Boston 2019!

Stare in disbelief as I send you home DEVASTATED!

;)

Congrats to SI and Darkwave on their big fat marathon PRs. Well done.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

... Of course, you ONLY PRd by a MERE SIX minutes... I need FIFTEEN...

I know what you should do for Boston 2019!

Stare in disbelief as I send you home DEVASTATED!

Coach Jeff: I forget your previous time ... do you need a 15-minute improvement to break 3, or to match SI's time? There is also another 90 seconds you may need to overcome the statistical slow-down from age 49 to 50.

I am looking for an 8-minute "actual" improvement over my last marathon, but will need a whopping 13 minutes, based on age-graded percentages. And as a long-time runner, those stats are likely more accurately predictive for me than you.

You, Still Improving, and outsiderunner continue to set lifetime PRs at 49-50, so anything is possible. With all three of you heading to Boston, we may have a race in the M50-54 group!

Thanks guys for the congrats - I hope it didn't come across like I was swooping in to fish for congratulations. I just saw an opportunity to contribute something relevant to a thread that I enjoy following, so I did.

Smoove - this race is definitely worth trying, and perhaps the rolling aspect might help your cramping. I do think that this is not the best course for someone who is a rhythm runner (as I am). The rolling nature, with virtually no flats, makes it very hard to lock into a pace. The runner who will do best on this course is someone who can handle variations in pace and surging, since the course effectively makes you do that.

I think if nothing else, you would enjoy the experience. It really is a unique race - the photo-negative of Boston.

Like Boston, you run from a suburb into a city, and the course is a net downhill. But where Boston is about celebrating running, and many people just run it "for the experience," CIM is all about chasing times. There were very few people on that start line who were running the race just for the experience; the vast majority were deadly serious about hitting a time that mattered to them.

[as an aside, I didn't see a single runner in costume or juggling or anything like that the entire race - again, very different from most other marathons.]

As noted before, the logistics for CIM both before and after are vastly superior to Boston - this is a race managed by serious runners for serious runners - money is spent on stuff like extra portapotties and heated buses, not bands on course and photo opportunities.

I found the first half of CIM to be tougher than the first half of Boston - much more climbing. And while CIM does not have Heartbreak Hill or anything like that, the hills aren't truly done until Mile 22. And those last four flat miles feel awful by then, if you've wrecked your legs on the previous course (as I did).

I do think that the more one runs this course, the better one can run it - you just don't understand (and thus respect) the course until you've run it. A lot of people blow up here each year, and my sense is that most are first-timers who see the profile and get cocky.

I know of 12 people who ran CIM whose training I am familiar with. Three set 5 minute+ PRs, though those PRs were consistent with what previous races had indicated - nothing shocking (and one of those was a 7 minute PR over CIM 2017...). The balance missed their realistic goals - some by a little, one by a lot (that person went out WAY TOO FAST and paid spectacularly in the final 10K, finishing with an 11 minute positive split). For the rest who missed their goals, it was a combination of having an off day and not respecting the hills quite too much (several still ran well - just not quite what they wanted).

So that's 25% of those 12 who had really good days, and 75% who didn't. I think that when discussing the spectacular results of CIM, people focus on all the good races that happened (and there are a lot of good performances, when you have a field of this caliber), and don't pay attention to the balance of the results.

I also think that, regardless of how well you run this race, it will wreck you - it's the nature of the course. I am much much more sore than I've been after any other race in the past several years, including Boston 2018. I feel this course is harder on the body than Boston (though my body might have just been preserved by cryotherapy at Boston). I'm hearing similar from everyone else who ran it this year.

StillImproving and Cocoon - congratulations on your great days. RunnersFix - I'm sorry about your day. I absolutely agree with you - the course can be very fast, but it's not for everyone. I know others who missed OTQs for similar reasons to you. And like you, they are looking for flat races for their next attempts.

Allen1959 wrote:

Coach Jeff: I forget your previous time ... do you need a 15-minute improvement to break 3, or to match SI's time? There is also another 90 seconds you may need to overcome the statistical slow-down from age 49 to 50.

I am looking for an 8-minute "actual" improvement over my last marathon, but will need a whopping 13 minutes, based on age-graded percentages. And as a long-time runner, those stats are likely more accurately predictive for me than you.

You, Still Improving, and outsiderunner continue to set lifetime PRs at 49-50, so anything is possible. With all three of you heading to Boston, we may have a race in the M50-54 group!

I ran 3:15 one year ago.

So the sub-3 thing is audacious at my age, but I'm faster at all other distances compared to last year, putting me about 2 VDOTs away at this point (based on the recent 10k...and NOT accounting for the heat). If the next 18 weeks go smoothly, it's not beyond the scope of human endeavor. Hell, I chased a Boston qualifying time for FIFTEEN YEARS. As far as I'm concerned, they're closing the roads from Hopkinton to Boylston St. for me. I ain't gonna make it a race for OR or SI, but I am NOT (half) circumnavigating the globe for a 26 mile sight-seeing jaunt.

Geez, I was just getting ready to call it a night and now I feel the adrenaline kicking in... Sweet dreams...

runrincerepeat wrote:

OR - no offense. But if feeling good at end of a 5k you def did something wrong. You should be hunched over or laying in a ditch if it was ran correctly.

No offense taken, my friend. I get it. I had not run a 5k in a while, and did not know what to expect. Also, as I had stated earlier, I had both the marathon and my right calf in the back of my mind, and so I was being somewhat conservative. Overall, it was a great experience to run that fast and feel so good. Hopefully, I will be looking for 17:09 or 16:xx in my next flat (or fair) 5k effort. Those courses are hard to find around here.

Right now, it is snowing. I have the day off. Time to run in the white stuff!

CIM Review

TLDR; Despite thy typical comments you see on LRC calling it a gimmick course, it is an honest course that tends to attract a lot of fast runners.

First off there is a bit of marketing involved when you read about the race on the official web page. You see things like "Fastest Course in the West.", "#1 Boston Qualifier!", and "340' elevation drop." and to me it looks like the marketing works. I saw quite a few people out on the streets and at the expo with their Boston Marathon jackets. The guy I was sitting next to on the bus told me that his goal for the race was to improve on his qualifying time for Boston 2020. He ran Chicago this year and felt that he needed better time to guarantee acceptance. Also on the bus was a woman who was shooting for an OTQ for her debut marathon. I'll admit that I fell for the fast course bit too. There was a thread here a month or two ago asking which was faster Chicago, Berlin, or CIM. After reading that thread I looked at the course elevation profile on Strava and noticed that course had good bit of rolling terrain in the first 16 miles and that despite the net downhill the course has nearly 800ft of total elevation gain. That's a significant elevation gain and it pretty much cancels out the net elevation drop. At some point I wanted to compare CIM to my last marathon to determine how much I would really need to improve my time by factoring in the elevation profile. To do the comparison I took the difference between pace and GAP for each mile split and then totaled up the difference. CIM came up with a net positive of 1 sec which using this comparison makes it nearly equivalent to a flat course. Lastly, I will say that I will never use that find my marathon website to evaluate a course again. Too much smoothing in their elevation profiles and I don't think their comparison tool is all that accurate.

Overall I think CIM attracts a lot of fast runners or runners that are serious about hitting a goal time. First you have the all the people shooting for a BQ. Then you have the people looking to get an OTQ. Then you have the USATF marathon championship and the USABA championship. Then you have the people that are serious about hitting a time goal like me. Other than the majors, how many marathons in the US attract this many fast runners? LRC tends to get hung up on the number OTQs, but the fact is that this race is one of the races that probably attracts the most people shooting for an OTQ.

Race Details

Some of this may change from year to year so YMMV. I think you are pretty much limited to using their buses to get to the start line. Other than the early pick up time you may remain on the buses to stay warm which is a help. If you are staying near the start line or just catching one of the buses near the start line you have to get on the bus at least 2 hours prior to the race start.

They have a long line of porta-pottys and if you hit them an hour or more prior to race start all you need to do is just keep making your way down the row searching for a green unoccupied sign. After that lines start to form for every 3-4 porta-pottys and the wait is not that bad.

I'm guessing that you might want to start considering getting into the corral 20min prior to race start if you plan on running something faster than 3:30 or so. The 3:00 area was getting pretty crowded 10-15min prior to start if I remember correctly.

Hydration for the non-elites is every 2 miles or so. Elites have tables for their bottles after every 5k timing mat. For the non-elites the on course hydration is great. I'd test Nuun first if you want to hydrate with something other than water on the course. For 2018 I think they must have been using 8oz paper cups. With the larger cups I think I was able to get in more hydration than any previous race. I think I was able to get in somewhere between 3-5oz per station. This size cup made it easier to get the pinch right and get some fluid down. The only problem I had was not a fault of the course. The second station I went to pinch a cup Nuun and it slipped through my gloved hands so I grabbed a cup of water as a backup. I'd rate the on course hydration an A+.

When it comes to on course crowd support all I can say it is sporadic. What do you expect when running through a lot of suburban areas? There are some hot spots though and those were nice. Things pick up close to the finish line. Actually it picks up quite bit and helps in the last mile.

The finish line is interesting. Non-elite men and women have separate finish lines. It makes sense, but I'm not going try to explain that here. It is not a big deal and they have a person holding out the signs to guide you just after the first turn as you make your way in front of the capital. After the finish line is the medal followed by the painters jacket. I guess the switched over to the painters jacket from a mylar blanket to keep your hands free for the rest of the awkwardness in post race nutrition. Next I was offered a cup with Nuun or water. I said I would take both and did so, drank both, and put the cups in a nearby trash container. Next I pickup a bag of chips, a protein bar, and a banana. Good thing I ditched the cups so that I could manage these other item. I exit the finisher's chute and eat my goodies. Time for more hydration and I see there is very large water cooler. I'm not sure if it has Nuun or water, but I will never know. I look around for cups and don't find any. Should I have held onto the cup that I got in the finisher's chute? That's OK, there's hot soup so I get that and warm up with that. I could still use some hydration though. Sierra Nevada has free beers for finishers so I go over there and have a beer and hang out in the alcohol beverage zone for bit so that I can send out a few texts and drink my beer. We exit the alcohol beverage zone and the area after the finisher's chute is rather crowded, so it is time to call it on the post marathon festivities and find more food and hydration..

Sacramento is quiet city on weekends because it seems to be a city centered around government and business. So many of the restaurants were closed on the weekend which really limited the dining opportunities. The only highlight was Old Sacramento which serves as tourist sort of destination which is open and busy on the weekend. We spent a good bit of time walking around the day before the race looking for something to eat and after the race looking to replace the calories burnt in the race.

Some comments from me this week. Less than normal but didn't feel like I had anything to add to most.Tall dark roast - Almost 9 hours of running, while on vacation, solid weekKid B - big week indeed, gl heading into your HM in a few daysJamesTheAmateur - I know that disappointment, it happens. The build-up wasnt ideal so don't worry about this race too much. Keep on keeping onJeremy R - "I'd like to race more- race almost any surface/any distance (#sagecanaday). I'd like to do a long trail race next quarter." - That was something I ended up doing this year and its been alot of fun. 1mi(4), 5k(12), 5Mi(4), 10k, 10mi, HM(3), 30k, M(2), 100k. 29 races in all, indoor/outdoor track, roads, trail and XC. It was a lot, I think I will half that for 2019 but am happy i did it in 2018. It is fun, but cant worry about any 1 result because a lot of them go poorlyStill Improving - Congrats on going sub-3, hopefully that euphoria is still with youOutside Runner - Nice Job OR on the 5k, I'd agree you can drop that PR down some once you are further out from the marathonRRR - Sorry RRR, just have to get into the routine of cross training and see it through the lens of the bigger pictureNot a College Runner - Will be interested to see how the track season goes for you. I plan on doing an outdoor track season plus maybe 1-2 indoor meets in late winter.cocoon - great job beating your goal at CIMBruin1996 - quite a week.. and a lot of TmillHHH - hope you had a good trip, nice job with the HM given your conditionLancRunner - I will likely be heading north for Scranton Half which isn't to hilly, Spartan Half is on the York Rail Trail and perfectly flat. Nice week, surprised that 14 is your longest but I guess it makes sense if never raced HM or longer. I'd guess you need about 17mi LR for HM TrainingWorking Harder - Good to see you made it through that 32mile sunday last week, looks like the recovery went alrightDarkwave - nice job at CIM and nice analysis of the course. From what ive seen from friends running it and what I've read here I would agree that it is not an easy, quick, downhill course like a decent amount of LetsRunners seem to think. I believe the depth of subelites and common goal of the runners (to run fast as compared to finish), along with weather etc makes it a gem of a race. I would also guess that runners from hillier areas (such as myself, OR, Coach Jeff) would tend to run better there than flatlanders

going faster miles an hour - JtA: If you can let your running be a release from stress, rather than something that adds to it, it will probably be better for you and your running.

Nice little hidden golden nugget of advice. I let stress and performance completely overtake me when I was a swimmer and learned to hate the sport (thus why I quit and started running).

-RunnerSam, hope everybody is having a great week, I've been enjoying my time off. quads are still sore and foot still hurts (but less swollen).

RunnerSam - Yes, I saw no reason to risk anything or kill myself three weeks after a marathon and with a tight calf. I figured that the time would come. The REAL challenge is finding a non-hilly course around here. After running that course on Sunday, I know for sure now that it makes a HUGE difference.

[quote]RunnerSam wrote:

I would also guess that runners from hillier areas (such as myself, OR, Coach Jeff) would tend to run better there than flatlanders

[quote]

One of the reasons I did better in this year's CIM is that all my tempo runs were on a 3.5 mile loop with 150 ish feet of elevation gain/loss. Its not much of a hill, but it is rolling enough that it simulates the CIM course. I have to drive 8-10 miles for a really hilly course, which I would utilize much more for Boston training.

I would also add that anyone that tries to run the first half of CIM based purely on their watch splits (most new marathoners) is going to fail in the second half. The course just rolls and rolls!!

Thanks RunnerSam ... Like i said I wallow in my misery for some days and then get back on the grind.

Will have to make a tough decision on Houston soon but it looks like (with no running this week either) I will be out of the race.. at least competitively. Body and esp mind has gone into a little bit of shock from training at a high level to not running a step.. I have never went this long without a run since I started running in 2016. It is always tough for me to balance running as a mental health tool that used to stay ahead of my demons.. ... and the competitive side that wants to train and race at a high level, which is inherently more risky from an injury perspective.

When the decision on Houston is made, I will make sure I will abide by the terms of the wager. We never specified what a "steak" was but my definition is a beef steak that is at least 8 ounces. Less than 8 ounces is not a steak, also cooked on the rare side.. as "well done" is total carp and not a steak. (also adding steak sauce ruins a steak)

I am a man of my word... but will never gamble with a principle belief again. Bad Mojo.

Hey all.

I had some of my 2018 "wellness budget" from my company left over that I had to spend this month so I hired tinman as my coach, as I felt like I needed a more structured schedule and someone I'm accountable to in order to be more consistent.

What do you guys think of his training philosophy?

DietBacon wrote:

Hey all.

I had some of my 2018 "wellness budget" from my company left over that I had to spend this month so I hired tinman as my coach, as I felt like I needed a more structured schedule and someone I'm accountable to in order to be more consistent.

What do you guys think of his training philosophy?

Good decision. What I like most about Tinman is that he will emphasize a lot of critical velocity training which, if you're going to be doing a significant amount of sub-threshold work, is much less taxing (and yet big bang for your buck) than work above 90% V02 max. He seems to understand what Lydiard was hinting at (although there are significant differences between them both) in regards to the inadvisability of too much fast-paced interval work.