Road Racing and Training Thread Week ending Dec 2 2018 (CIM edition)

Smoove - I am going out to eat with my family now (well, Roy’s...where my daughter works), and so I will get to some discussion later. I would really like to discuss my view on too hot, esp. since you asked, and some other things. Regarding my adjustments, yes, they were not huge, but I did make some important adjustments. Pewow described them very well, and I wish he would post. Off hand, here is what I can recall...

1-mile time trial

1-mile race

track interval workout in August (I think your memory failed a tad there, as I did run 6x800...at basically perfect pace too...I understand if you do not remember...nobody is perfect)

20-mile race, suggested by sub-6:00

longer 5k warm-up, suggested by stat

There are others, particularly a big one (recent), but I have to go now.

You guys have really helped...but I also come to this forum for some “running fellowship.”

You’re right Gordon. What I’m trying to say is that I’ve always detected an absolutism on this thread that is contrary to good coaching. I’ve been to many clinics over the years and the one common thread I notice is that good coaches are always open to new ideas, outliers, experimentation, and tinkering.

OR - Another Saturday night, eh? I see the thread has been very active! I just got home from work. An Argentinian malbec in my glass. Took a break from work earlier to log a 7-miler on a snowy path.

Just got a text from an old friend. He made the trek from Albany to Seneca Falls for the annual "It's a Wonderful Run 5K." It's widely acknowledged that Seneca Falls is the inspiration for the mythical Bedford Falls in "It's a Wonderful Life." A nice snowfall this week I bet set the scene perfectly!

More than 5,000 runners in the race. I believe my buddy finished second M50-54. He's a former DIII runner at SUNY Brockport. 4:20 miler in high school, I think.

Have a wonderful evening!

too hot 3 wrote:

What I’m trying to say is that I’ve always detected an absolutism on this thread that is contrary to good coaching. I’ve been to many clinics over the years and the one common thread I notice is that good coaches are always open to new ideas, outliers, experimentation, and tinkering.

LOL!

Wow. Sunday morning coffee with thread drama today. I'm awake I'm awake.

OR: Have you ever read The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius? It's a collection I read in my late 20s that I wish I had read (sincerely and with an open mind) in my late teens. I find myself going back to it a few times a year, almost like scheduled maintenance for my ego. My hard copy is strategically underlined and becoming a bit careworn. Here's an online version, the same translation I use.

http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

Sorry, but I got to reading it again. How's this for training advice from my man Marcus!

“In the morning when thou risest unwillingly, let this thought be present,—I am rising to the work of a human being. Why then am I dissatisfied if I am going to do the things for which I exist and for which I was brought into the world? Or have I been made for this, to lie in the bed-clothes and keep myself warm?—But this is more pleasant.—Dost thou exist then to take thy pleasure, and not at all for action or exertion?”

...later...

“Be not disgusted, nor discouraged, nor dissatisfied, if thou dost not succeed in doing everything according to right principles, but when thou hast failed, return back again, and be content if the greater part of what thou doest is consistent with man's nature, and love this to which thou returnest”

Excerpt From: Emperor of Rome Marcus Aurelius. “Thoughts of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.” Apple Books.

Modern translation: Get your ass outta da bed and lace up, but if you miss a day or two of training, or if you don't nail every workout, don't kill yourself over it.

Allen - What great stuff here. I do not know where to start. First, I LOVE the film, “It’s a Wonderful Life”...in my all-time top ten, for sure. I watch it every year at Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I like it so much that I do mot even call it by its proper name. I just call it, “George Bailey.” So, I will say to the family, “Let’s watch George Bailey!” I really like his character, and Stewart plays it exceptionally well. What a great message in that film...friendship, passion, “work together,” communty, respect, and of course the pitfall of greed and miserliness. I love the love-thy-neighbor/communal-demoscracy theme. In fact, that is what really brought me into running—it is a very democratic sport. Almost anyone can do it...just step outside and go. pei haps smeray I will run that 5k.

So, was the snow path nice and soft...wherein that muffled atmosphere takes over? I have had Argentinian malbec, perhaps the same one you are sampling. I believe it was organic. Have not had it in a long while.

Have a great evening, my friend!

et. al...

some more adjustments that come to mind...

doubles, including a whole week of them, and other assorted two-a-days

the 7-day schedule rather than my usual six-day week

higher mileage, a la AJ

There are others, I am sure, but the biggest that comes to mind is Richmond 2018. I did, indeed, run that race for my wife, but the entire spirit of that race was for you guys. It was RR&T-formatted through and through. I asked questions prior to the race, and listened to all that you guys had to say. You bolstered my confidence, and I decided to run the race according the the consensus here: trust in your fitness and go out aggressively. That is precisely what I did. Were it purely an OR thing (purely from my POV, as opposed to a communal thought process), I would have lined up the half for 1:22:45 or even a few seconds slower. I believed that you guys knew what you were talking about, and I did not look back. The weather (wind) and solo-ness of the run did play with my mind, but I was expecting that. I need to do better at relaxing and letting my mind go blank, as Coach Jeff has rightly suggested.

The subject of too hot is very difficult for me to discuss, and I have not wanted to discuss it at all. Personalities are involved—and people are involved, and with the Internet in between, communication gets even tougher. I will put it this way. I have avoided the subject mainly because I like both of you, Smoove and too hot. Really, I genuinely do. I do not agree with everything too hot has done, particularly toward Smoove, but at least he has apologized for it. Apologies are difficult, and public apologies are even more difficult. Also, being the democratic type I am, I just love the fact that too hot has not let anyone run him off of this thread. Bravo, to you for that, too hot, as I do not like the idea of stifling someone, even if we may disagree with him or her. To me, democracy fails when people are stifled. So, too hot is a gadfly, and a nice breath of fresh air here, with some interesting running perspectives (at least in my view). He is the Alan Dershowitz of this thread, and democracy is dead without the Alan Dershowitzes of the world, whether we agree with them or not.

What disappointed me, though, was that too hot did not foster a spirit of friendship/brotherhood toward Smoove (and extend a hearty congrats) when Smoove ran brilliantly at Chicago. What a fine run, indeed, and a brave effort, too. I was waiting for too hot to say something from the heart, but he did not. To be honest, it made me sad. I was sad for a while, but got over it, as I realize that people do not always act the way we want them to act or do what we want them to do.

This is my straight and honest perspective, and I hope to remain “e-friends” with both of you. I add that I have learned a lot from both of you.

Most of all, I really enjoy the “running fellowship” aspect of this thread. Running is so much more than plans and paces. To me, it is people and passion.

LOL still like an episode of Days of our Lives.

OR people discuss your training so much because of this.

Thanks to this thread we have the data!

14 weeks leading into Richmond 2017 averaged 60 mpw . Average pace 7:02. Race pace 6:35.

14 weeks leading into Shamrock 2018 averaged 63 mpw. Average pace 6:36. Race pace 6:27.

14 weeks leading into Richmond 2018 averaged 67 mpw. Average pace 6:39. Race pace 6:20.

A person can read it in many different ways. I think a 9-27 second difference from race pace to average training pace means you trained harder than you needed to or you raced below your fitness level. I don't think you raced below your level so I'd say you trained harder than needed. Some could say looking at the difference that the race was left in the training. Easy for me to say since I never ran a marathon.

Try not to get upset if people knock on your training. No one here thinks you are a bad runner. They just think/hope you do better. Once again easy to say since now I'm not doing any training.

Great job on the 5k PR that's a really good time for a master runner. I think you commented earlier about running a 5k PR after a marathon PR. That is fairly common. Most people even good 5k runners are aerobically challenged. When they actually put in the extra miles training for the marathon they then come back and run a fast 5k. Similar to that "I got better without intervals" thread we discussed months ago.

Pappy - Thank you so much for the valuable feedback. I have been meaning to tell you, for a while now, that I think you were onto something in regard to hormones. Comparing my marathon and 5k performances, I went into the marathon with a fairly steep taper and a fair amount of rest (days off, etc). Conversely, I went into the recent 5k untapered, having run a hard 13.13 two days prior and a pretty peppy 10-miler the day before. Perhaps my hormones were a little messed up prior to the marathon. Could you expound upon that?

Also, going over things, I have determined that I may have gotten sick, or have been under the weather, after that hilly, rainy 16-miler three weeks prior to the marathon. I say this because I felt chest congestion, and in the last week or so this chest congestion is finally gone. Perhaps I had a “bug.” I get sick so rarely (but do have allergies) that these things are hard for me to fully detect sometimes.

All the best, my friend...

I always vote for liberty.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what’s for dinner.

outsiderunner wrote:

Pappy - Thank you so much for the valuable feedback. I have been meaning to tell you, for a while now, that I think you were onto something in regard to hormones. Comparing my marathon and 5k performances, I went into the marathon with a fairly steep taper and a fair amount of rest (days off, etc). Conversely, I went into the recent 5k untapered, having run a hard 13.13 two days prior and a pretty peppy 10-miler the day before. Perhaps my hormones were a little messed up prior to the marathon. Could you expound upon that?

I'm not a very good one for explaining a peak and a taper. Steve Magness somewhere on the interwebs has a great podcast on it. Basically, it is a balancing act of healing your overuse condition while maintaining a high level of good hormone levels to race. A lot of it has to do with keeping endorphine levels high natural painkillers. Everyone knows Lydiard did this by increasing the speed at the end. The problem with that is he didn't write crap down very well and the old Lydiard guys like to talk lore more than facts. I have heard Daniels wrote it down well. Tinman has been discussed a bunch lately and he coaches a mini taper & peak from my understanding.

RRR, ha lamb chops are tasty.

runrincerepeat wrote:

I always vote for liberty.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what’s for dinner.

Yeah, I see that. Liberty is attained through having a voice...and certain amount of civil respect/fairness. Pure liberty becomes the rule of the jungle.

Pappy wrote:

RRR, ha lamb chops are tasty.

Well, they are not baaaaaahd.

Interestingly, Jefferson had a much less cooperative view of the needs for liberty:

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

For the record, I am in no way associating you with YJ's quote or any party therein. Just noting that one of our founding fathers - the one I find least compelling (sorry AJ) - saw liberty as something other than a cooperative.

Liberty is. If you want the freedom to say whatever you want. Someone may say whatever they want to you. And you just have to.. get over it or not?!

If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

George Orwell

OR thank you for the kind words. I have tried to make amends for my trollish behaviors and you would think that with all of the abuse I receive in return they would have “purged” it out of their system but forgiveness is a difficult thing for some people. Smoove tried to act like none of that ever bothered him but he is the kind of poster, unlike RRR, who can insult you without telling you as much. RRR is much more more of a straight shooter. Unfortunately both of them are pretty miserable right now and misery loves company. I feel that it why they have jumped on you this week.

When I was unfair to Smoove I was doing it to release some of my own crap. Not excusing my behavior but I think that’s where a lot of this internet behavior comes from.

There are some posters here who I feel indebted to (yourself, gfmph, pappy, coach Jeff, and Allen) off the top of my head) for at times valuing what I have to say. I also thank Stone Cutter for being someone who took the first steps toward mediation.

I was honestly very impressed by Smoove’s 2:30 in Chicago. I apologize that I wasn’t more congratulatory. I think I was just expecting people (no matter what I said) to start their “vitriol” against me but it was a remarkable performance given what he had to overcome in the last cycle. I also learned post-Chicago that his training is not as polarized as I thought it was.

I think it’s important to note that coaches have opinions. Strong opinions. Good coaches, however, are open to considering that perhaps Smoove’s training is the best for him and that your training is the best for you. It’s not my way or the highway, Lydiard or bust.

OR, I will make one last comment and then agree to drop this line of discussion unless you would like to talk about it more (either here or off line).

While you have indeed made a few adjustments, a few of those adjustments - adding a run on Sunday, doubling some and increasing your overall volume - are all really one adjustment; adding overall volume (which is part of the natural overall progression of a runner). The other things you listed - running a couple of races, doing one time trial, increasing your warm up for your last race to a more conventional length- were essentially "one offs." The essence of your training - a daily progression run - has remained the same. I think when most people think about the essence of their training, they think about how they go about getting their quality work in and how that quality work interplays with their overall volume. How you get your quality work remains unchanged, as does, I believe, the interplay of that quality work with your overall volume.

When I and others say that you ask for advice but continue to do the same things in your training, we are not trying to avoid giving you credit for the increased volume and the various ways that you have gone about accomplishing that, but rather I think most just see that as an organic change that is just a natural part of running, and not a material adjustment to the principles of your training.

I truly don't know why that should be an offensive statement.

As to you too hot, you can keep trying to hide behind the one apology that you gave me, but it really isn't very good cover. It was honestly a very good apology, all that could have been done at the time and it was appreciated, but apologizing doesn't mean that the words became unsaid or should no longer be a factor when evaluating your contributions and perspective. Especially since some of them were essentially "fighting words" and because your bad behavior did not cease after that as can be seen by subsequent weeks' threads. I could cull many examples from those subsequent weeks, but all of those who post here regularly have seen the evidence themselves, so I will not bother. Also, your attempts at revisionist history and re-characterizing the nature of my training because I said in a post that me heart rate would often climb during summer runs at easy distance effort is an obvious attempt by you to save face about being wrong again about my fitness and my ability to judge that fitness and everyone sees it for what it is.

Smoove - Thanks for taking the time to offer additional thoughts.

I am no longer offended, and so no narm, no foul. Peace be with you.

In case you missed it, our man Bird took down some scrubbs named Ritzenhein, Droddy, Lalang, Fischer, Puskedra, Biwott, and Vail, among others....

http://www.rtspt.com/events/usatf/clubxc18/open_men.html

AJ be like...

https://youtu.be/jjaqrPpdQYc