Road Racing and Training Thread Week ending Dec 2 2018 (CIM edition)

He isn't against 5k type training persay, but for someone like you, in the last 6 weeks before a goal effort, could incorporate some of it to really get to a peak.

He is against using it as Daniels would - for anywhere from 6-12 weeks, every week in a 5k-15k training block.

Tinman's training is strikingly similar to what NAU uses without the two consulting each other, most likely.

Redman_ wrote:

He isn't against 5k type training persay, but for someone like you, in the last 6 weeks before a goal effort, could incorporate some of it to really get to a peak.

He is against using it as Daniels would - for anywhere from 6-12 weeks, every week in a 5k-15k training block.

Tinman's training is strikingly similar to what NAU uses without the two consulting each other, most likely.

This is funny because NAU's coach has said that the book any coach should read is Daniels. He just has to scale back some intensities because they train at altitude.

Very true. He also shared an office with Jack for several years as well, so it is hard to not let that influence his perspective.

His philosophy is much more aerobic based than a typical Daniels' approach, but you are correct, altitude has a fair amount to do with that.

Redman_ wrote:

He isn't against 5k type training persay, but for someone like you, in the last 6 weeks before a goal effort, could incorporate some of it to really get to a peak.

I don't think Tinman uses late-season sharpening, does he? The idea of 10k training preceding the marathon-specific block is very Daniels-esque to me, just with a different emphasis.

Jewbacca, where were you following the training of that tinman trainee runner if not on strava?

pewow - I forgot to mention...thanks for the compliment, and yes, you are right about my 5k PR. It has been coming for a while.

Allen - Thanks for picking up on that summer heat/humidity thing in regard to my training for Richmond 2018. You are right, as that 14-week period extends well back into summer. I feel better now. Still, something felt "off" a few weeks prior to that race, and I will continue to try to put my finger on what it was.

outsiderunner wrote:

Still, something felt "off" a few weeks prior to that race, and I will continue to try to put my finger on what it was.

Well, even with your incredible recovery powers, that 20-mile race at 6:11/mi may well have had an effect on subsequent training.

Allen - Yes, that is certainly a possibility, and perhaps a distinct one at that. I have also considered that hard, hilly 16-mile effort in the rain three weeks prior to Richmond. Or it may have been a combination of those two runs? In any case, I am pretty certain that the "off" feeling began after the 16-miler. I realize that a lot of this is based upon feeling, an so it is tough to decipher. Since I am a "feel" runner, I tend toward viewing things in that manner.

Someone (I think Coach Jeff) has mentioned that I do best when I have nothing on my mind or am not thinking at all. He is right. That is pretty much the way I went into Sunday's 5k. I more or less let my mind go blank and had no real expectations for that race, other than that I thought it would be nice to run under 18:00. I felt no pressure, and the environment was quite positive...and no hills on the brain, either. I felt good the whole way. Also, it was an afternoon race (2pm), and you know how I say that I tend to feel better when running in the afternoon.

Here is my training plan. I only scheduled the workouts from the Daniels 41-55mi 2Q plan and the rest I fit in whatever easy running I could. I did not follow the weekly volume from the plan since my intent was to try to see if I could bump up the weekly volume if I could. You can see my modifications to the workouts where I crossed through the portion of the workout that I modified and penciled in what I actually did. The weekday workouts I almost always reduced the easy mileage and kept most of the workout volume. My reason for sharing this is to show how that I modified the plan to fit me and that the workouts in the 2Q plan are rather large and you should not hesitate to modify them to fit your schedule or your ability to execute the workout on that day. It is the body of work that contributes to the end result and a single workout is not going the make or break your goals. One of things this training plan does is has you doing a lot of running on fatigued legs and none of my workouts would have predicted the outcome from this past race. If you need any help deciphering my chicken scratch, let me know and I will try to translate.

https://imgur.com/a/XJvblLZ

Christmas comes early for me! Thanks, man.

SI: Very instructive for me. Virtually every "Q" modified, also what Allen suggested he might do... adjust the "Q" to suit how he's feeling. My gut is to prioritize the "Q" and adjust the "E." Maybe Smoove has an opinion on this? What I mean is to arrange the E mileage to support the Q days. So suppose I have 40k of E work on the schedule. My week might look like this: Q1-12-8-Q2-8-12-Rest---Q1-etc... On 1.0 weeks, I may run 7 days, trying to keep a similar proportion on E days and adding the remainder on the "rest" day. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. And I may not yet fully appreciate what I've signed on for. It'll be fun to watch myself evolve on this :)

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking this. Anyway, tomorrow is week 18. I'm excited, what can I say?

OR's Training: outsiderunner's training (Go outside. Run.) has been a lens that through which I've learned so much about a wide variety of training plans. That we're able to discuss all this stuff with so little conflict (compared to the Internet at large) is actually pretty remarkable. I've learned a lot.

I'm several beers into the night, so I may adjust my opinion on this, but I'd really like to see some medium long (15k-18k) runs. If that means adjusting your schedule an 8 day schedule to allow for more recovery for the Qs, so be it. It's almost like 2.5 Q every 8 or 9 days instead of 2Q every 7.

Jewbacca- i need to read up more on this. Because I think this is where my strength would be- those iia muscle fibers. However, I don't remember Magness's approach in his book regarding these fiber types. Gotta read up on that. However, from my understanding of primarily fast twitch runners, he likes to do 10-15 sec faster than threshold (so about 10k pace) for "cruise intervals" with short rest and 15-25 seconds slower than threshold for straight tempos...

Because of the CV paces, would you say the work/rest is 3:1 or 4:1? Standard Daniels LT work/rest is 5:1

As for OR- come on man, straight up, you know yourself that you won't change or try something different. You feel that your approach works for you and you have PRd etc. The question would be, if you didn't PR on your last race as to what you would do? That's more intriguing to me.

OR, what kind of “street jazz musician” ends up playing basically the exact same solo every single time? Maybe “one trick pony” would be a better description?

Taking this comparison a little further, I guess this “street jazz musician/one trick pony”, would then focus on his self-proclaimed greatness of his single motif and discount and ignore learning from masters of the art form like, say, Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter etc

There’s a world of music out there brother. I’d find you more beastly if you opened yourself humbly to the possibilities.

Darn. I discovered one error in that image that I posted. The week ending Oct. 14 the 20 mile run was not a straight easy run. It was a TLT as 3E+3T+10E+2T+2E. I did that because I felt it was a good time to inject some quality after missing earlier workouts due to injury.

Other notes...

Late in the schedule I was preferring a longer warm up time with some of the warmups of the planned workouts being only a 1mi so I would extend that and adjust the rest of the workout. VO2max workouts tend to leave me wanting more recovery so I had planned on using CV workouts instead. I did that earlier and then VO2max later since I seemed to be getting a bit better and recovering from those workouts.

While the 2Q plan has served me well with modifications, I have not decided what I am going to do for Boston 2019. I plan to make that decision before Jan. 1.

My limited understanding of jazz comes from watching LaLaLand, but isn't the style so rooted in such mastery of the fundamentals and music theory that they can then build on that in interesting variations?

Seems like we've got more of an H. Jon Benjamin's album situation rather than anything from Coltrane.

The analogy is being stretched. I don't have particularly sophisiticated tastes and can find joy in the same simple things over and over. I mean, pizza is good.

As long as I don't try to push those tastes on others, no one should care all that much.

Smoove, you may very well be a simple man who enjoys the simple pleasure of eating pizza over and over again. You do not, however, after a while start to question why the taste of your pizza wasn’t exactly what you expected it to be, even though it’s the same pizza you have made over and over again.

And when you ask for ways to make an even more delicious pizza, and one or more of your friends offer suggestions as to how to make an even more delicious pizza, you don’t discard they’re helpful suggestions and stick to the same recipe.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying pizza. It is certainly one of my go-to staple food selections. But it would be kind of silly of me to put the same pizza I have always made over and over again into the oven, and expect roast duck to pop out of the oven when the timer goes off.

100% agree. I am just saying that there is no point in criticizing him actually running the way he does. It is a valid choice. But if people have a bone to pick with him constantly asking for advice he will then ignore or his advocating his approach to running to others, I see that as perfectly fair ground. I recognize that RRR doesn't dig on the dairy, I recognize that advocating pizza as a the base of someone else's food pyramid, or asking for tips on pizza making over and over and then ignoring them is very different than digging on some fine pizza (which, all metaphors aside, has actually been my dinner for 6 of the last 10 nights - I have no idea how I have only gone up to 147-148 since Chicago).