Why ate students being told to pursue STEM? These fields are miserable!

All those people saying that STEM as a grouping makes little sense... I agree.

There are probably some areas of STEM that are a grind... a lot of people major in bio or physics, but you need a PhD to really pursue those professions, and the world doesn't need that many physics PhDs. Bio majors with undergrad degrees and no med school probably don't have great opportunities.

When we say students should choose STEM, maybe we're thinking about CS specifically.

I'm a software engineer. MBAs are not telling me what to do. I always have to be creative to solve problems. I make very good money (more than the 200k stated earlier in the thread). I don't sit in a cubicle, I can sit anywhere I want except in a private office. I can work once a week from home, but I choose not to, because the free food at work is awesome. I get multiple unsolicited emails from recruiters a day, as do all my coworkers.

The thing is, to be treated so well, you have to actually excel at programming and architecture. You have to care about producing high quality work and you have to learn new things every day. I've interviewed a lot of engineers, and quite a few were shockingly bad at basic coding. I'm sure they'll get jobs somewhere. Maybe they'll get told what to do by an MBA, then complain about how STEM sucks.

antiSTEMitic wrote:

Engineering- crappy money. Sit in a cubicle. MBAs tell you what to do. It’s not “creative”.

Hold on. I thought engineers can work on bridges or skyscrapers and get paid more than the average salary in America.

SF engineer wrote:

The thing is, to be treated so well, you have to actually excel at programming and architecture.

Do you need a graduate degree in computer science? Or just 4 years?

Are you from an Ivy League college? Do recruiters care about the prestige of the college?

Does living in San Francisco give you an unfair advantage? What if you lived in Florida? Would your skills still be in demand?

John Utah wrote:

easy question wrote:

happy and poor....no question

are you poor and happy?

i'd rather be happy and rich.

being poor does not make you happy, although some people seem to think this

yes

4 years is typical. College dropouts can also do really well, assuming they dropped out because they had better opportunities, not because they were struggling academically. Really smart people who switched over from other STEM disciplines as well.

I'm from an Ivy-equivalent college. Yes, recruiters care about the prestige if you don't have any experience. If you are from a less-well-known college and you're getting passed by during resume reviews, you can always work your way up. Start at less prestigious jobs and quickly become the best engineer there, then get a better job.

Prestige only helps you get the initial interview. You can't just talk your way into the job without having the skills. Practicing whiteboard coding is recommended. I'm talking about the places where I'd consider working; I'm sure some companies aren't rigorous enough. If an interview just consists of chatting with a manager... run away.

Well, I'm not sure there are any companies in Florida with as much money as the big software companies in the Bay Area. You could try to find a job that lets you work remotely, or work for a local company that can't pay you nearly as well. Working for a top software company isn't just about the pay, though. It's about working with people you respect and constantly learning. Solving interesting problems.

Good thread man wrote:

Medicine/doctors make 3x Engineers

On average, maybe.

Both are extremely broad titles with wide ranges of pay.

Many types of M.D.s such as Neurologists and Psychiatrists typically make little more than $100k. Again, remember that they're not making anything until they get out of med school in their thirties, and are starting out with tons of debt.

The M.D.s that make $250k or more are in the upper half of med school grads, who choose to or are able to get into the better paying specialties. And yes, the ones who get into specialties like Oncology or Dermatology make in excess of $1 million.

Harambe wrote:

In the lab sciences the MBA types are becoming more known for tanking companies than leading them.

Gotta have some IQ on board.

Agreeing with this.

Also: these days the MBAs who move into management of elite tech companies come from technical backgrounds. Don't get me wrong--you'll run into plenty of former consultants, lawyers, and MBAs--but they'll have degrees and experience in CS, EE, BioE, and so on.

The last time MBAs from nontechnical backgrounds played a pivotal role in a rapidly developing tech company was when they booted Jim Clark out of SGI in 1994, and...well, that didn't end too hot for anyone except Clark.

I’m a bs in mechanical/ms in civil, 32 years out of undergrad. State university educated. I currently work as an engineering manager with about 40 design/construction staff. I make 140k in Colorado. My day is never boring-I frequently work outside if I choose to. I work somewhere between 45 and 50 hours most weeks. I work with mostly smart, hardworking and nice people-though of course there are always some drama kings/queens wherever you go.

Technically, most of what I do a smart 8th grader with a semester of algebra 2 could figure out. It’s been decades since I did a Fourier transform, and I’ve never been paid to do one. My advice for engineering students is to learn how to write and speak publicly. The math and science gets you in the door, but communication gets you to the next level.

Civil/mechanical here wrote:

I’m a bs in mechanical/ms in civil, 32 years out of undergrad. State university educated. I currently work as an engineering manager with about 40 design/construction staff. I make 140k in Colorado. My day is never boring-I frequently work outside if I choose to. I work somewhere between 45 and 50 hours most weeks. I work with mostly smart, hardworking and nice people-though of course there are always some drama kings/queens wherever you go.

Technically, most of what I do a smart 8th grader with a semester of algebra 2 could figure out. It’s been decades since I did a Fourier transform, and I’ve never been paid to do one. My advice for engineering students is to learn how to write and speak publicly. The math and science gets you in the door, but communication gets you to the next level.

That right there is absolutely great advice, spot on to be specific.

antiSTEMitic wrote:

Engineering- crappy money.

Medicine- protocol driven.

Why not pursue thoughtful things?

I bet you're an anti-dentite as well.

Union trades are a great non college option for the average hs male provided you live in a non right to work state. In my area, all the trades besides roofers and laborers make 70-90k. Some guys can clear 100k depending on amount of work available and overtime. Cost of living is not bad, you can get solid homes for around 200k. If you have half a brain, actually show up to work each day, and a little drive you can be superintendent or project manager in 10 years or less.

SF engineer wrote:

I'm a software engineer. MBAs are not telling me what to do. I always have to be creative to solve problems. I make very good money (more than the 200k stated earlier in the thread)

Companies may hire these SF guys straight out of college, but they won't last long at 200k if they aren't the best of the best and seriously produce for the company.

Pretty sure PhDs in stem fields make pretty good money, but why not a stem undergrad, then MBA or law degree? That’s a powerful combination.

Exploiting the natural resource that is the upcoming generation to prepare for the next national threat. Science promoted after Sputnik. Russian ("civilization")language and culture during the cold war, and same with Japanese during the 80's, Arabic after 9/11, Chinese starting more than a decade ago. Include sports in this too.

That said, fields aren't thoughtful rather people are. Listen to someone talking about the most trivial thing and next thing this person is pulling another world out of their minds.

Medicine pays well. Everyone bitches about the hours but no one complains about the pay. Even fresh out of residency I personally know family medicine physicians getting 220k/yr job offers at clinics 8-5pm with a 50k sign in bonus. Part time poisitions and urgent care shifts in citiies pay very well in excess of 1200$ per 12 hour shift.

Growth? Go into palliative care, hospice, wound care, medical administration, director of clinics, nursing homes, etc. All the aforementioned are paying extremely well and with the growing elderly population will only become more profitable.

Its probably the longest career path but its worth it. When youre actually in the career you begin to see why we tend to have the luxuries of life. The pay is very good. Personally I love medicine I enjoy having conversations with my patients and educating them about life choices.

I'm an engineering manager in Seattle. I thought people might be interested in the salaries on my 30+ team.

Total range - 90 to 200. Most between 120 and 180. I hire top 15 to 20% of people with legit degrees (excluding University of Phoenix types.) Typical hours 45 to 50 / week. People who work more are more likely to advance and earn more and vice versa. I definitely have a couple low performers working 40 or less.

High performers in law, medicine and business make more, but medicine has a higher bar. I'm not sure about law - for those without math / science skills and a more literary aptitude, law is probably a good option (if you are top 15%). If you have people skills, you can make a hell of a lot more in business.

My sister did economics BA -> consulting -> venture capital -> VP of a successful startup. Her total comp is 7 figures and roughly 10 times mine. But she is top 5% technically and top 1% in people skills and works 80+ hours / week 365 days per week. I am top 1-2% technically and top 30% people skills and I doubt I would have been able to achieve her career path if I'd gone in that direction, but I do think I probably would make more money than I do now. My job has fewer hours and a lot less stress than hers.

So your sister makes millions every single year but still works 80+ hours a week?

any plans on retiring in the next couple of years?

so easy to get addicted to the work and waste the only currency that matters. There' s no way someone working 80 plus hours a week with ZERO days off is really enjoying their life.

That's right be just like one of those thousands of liberal arts majors that graduate each year with a mountain of debt and no job opportunities.

Not everyone with a Stem degree is going to be an all star but as a whole you're better off. And the right Stem person can rise to upper management just like anyone else. At a certain point the person far outweighs the degree.

the real truth, ruth wrote:

National universities, heavy in tech, or bust. CMU. Stanford. MIT.

A good school name will help your resume get to the top of the pile for positions that are expecting to hire a new grad, but once the interview process gets going it's a level playing field where all that matter are your technical skills and personality. If you live in a tech capital like San Francisco or Seattle, you can make connections and get referred for interviews, doesn't matter your educational background.