Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11-4-18

Allen- good luck, definitely hoping it's just a false positive. Not telling the wife might be a good idea, but mine is an RN, so I tell her everything since medical stuff is not my thing at all.

NSAIDS- I thought that NSAIDS are no longer a go for any "-itis" injuries, ie use the natural healing process to clear the inflammation? Or else it may weaken it or even hamper recovery? same thing with the use of ice?

Jeremy, I actually considered addressing this point, but opted not to.

While I think there is a growing movement in that direction, I would not apply that advice to OR's current situation. At this point in the training process, just 5 days away from race day, with the hay in the barn, you do what you need to do to get through race day and then you defer to the body's natural healing process after the race.

Take that with a grain of salt though. I am not a huge advocate of letting the body find its own way, which is why I don't simply ignore a fever, which is also a symptom of our body's immune system reacting to a problem.

This is an opportune time to mention the 10 pieces of whole fruit per day .. But I will not.

Agree with Smoove on this one... As much of a "health thru diet" advocate... sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Jeremy - Thank you for your input and concern. I took Smoove’s comments in the exact manner he has described. In any other situation, I would proceed in the manner you advocate. In any case, I will still be careful, though, and take the minimum needed to alleviate the soreness and get me to the start. In fact, since tomorrow is an off day (no running), I will say some prayers and play it conservatively, seeing if the knees feel any better...then, if I need some ibuprofen or naproxen, I will move forward with that tomorrow night or perhaps Thursday morning.

The race is on Sat., and so it is four days out, not five.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Sam - I'm sorry you can't drink coffee. hantph - enjoy XC regionals SOBO - Congrats on the big PR Kid B - Solid week Allen - Please tell your wife! That does not sound like a good idea. Like Elixir talked about recently, NSAIDs are preventing you from healing but can help with acute pain to a certain extent. If nothing else, psychologically it makes you feel like you're able to do something right before a race. My fall recap is as follows. Felt pretty good coming into September. Took a week off due to illness and my grandpa passing away and after that I never really felt like I had my mojo back. The 16:29 really surprised me as I wasn't feeling good in prior training or races. I guess it suggests to me that I can race into shape pretty quickly. Did a trail 12k and road 15k on back to back weekends and I'm still not sure if it built fitness or just pushed me further into not feeling good. I'm feeling good mentally, physically and I really think I've got some good races in store for 2019. Currently 20 miles and 1 gym session in.

Jacob Riis wrote:

Look at a stone cutter hammering away at his rock, perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred-and-first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not the last blow that did it, but all that had gone before

Seth Godin wrote:

The answer to your quandary is right there, in front of you.

It’s just that it involves more work, more risk or more trade-offs than you were hoping for.

My 2019 plans are currently as follows.

Spring target races: 1 or 2 track 5ks and a road 8k in April

Summer target races: Fast competitive road 5k in late July

Other races I might do

December: Wanted to race grindfest (competitive progression run) but I'll be in MN

January: Some road races (3-5mi) and indoor track meet. Nordic skiing

February: road 5k. Nordic skiing

March: 10k and Shamrock 8k in Chicago?!?

April: 10mi early in month? Goal 5k & 8k

May: 10k

June: 1mi-5k track races

July: 1mi track race, Goal 5k

Training I'm planning on doing a sort of double peak in April then July and target 200 miles/month. The first build will have more 1mi-3k type workouts because I'm planning on doing a lot of 4mi-10k races. Second build will have more 10k type workouts because I'll get the 1mi-3k stuff from summer track series.

General

November: Steady mileage and hill sprints

December: Start M pace/cruise/progression runs and fartleks

January: Start 15k-HM pace tempos and intervals

February: Start 10k pace and 1500-3k pace intervals, Switch cruise runs maintenance at end of long runs when feeling good

Pre-Comp

March: Start 5k specific work. tempos to maintenance

Comp

April: Race! track 5k and road 8k

General

May: Start cruise runs and 15k-HM stuff. End of month add 1mi/3k and 10k intervals.

Pre-Comp

June: Start 5k specific work. Cruise runs and tempos to maintenance. Summer track series start mid month.

Comp

July: Race! Last summer track meet and road 5k

RGM - Thanks. I need to do more of that kind of stuff to ward off Father Time.

Allen - praying for you man. I’m certain that a 2:40 stud who eats nails for breakfast can beat whatever this turns out to be.

angryjohnny wrote:

Allen - praying for you man. I’m certain that a 2:40 stud who eats nails for breakfast can beat whatever this turns out to be.

I have no doubt, either.

RRR - Pretty solid week. Got some nice turnover going there on your quality day.

TDR - Solid week, especially the long run. Sounds like you're getting pretty fit.

GT - Nice racing, I think you'll have no trouble getting under 17.

Allen - Bummer about the knee. Still a pretty solid racing season for you with a few good masters wins.

GFMAH - Another very solid 8+ hour week. I've always been a big fan of 1:00/1:00 whenever I start getting back into workouts. Wakes the body up to some intensity without being too crazy.

AJ - Nice week. Really solid workout Tuesday and there was certainly some benefit to those alternations coming off a long run even if they weren't as fast as you hoped they would be.

OR - Nice solid taper week. Will be interesting to see how Saturday goes.

Sub 6:00 - And I thought I travelled a lot…man.

Team1 - Sounds like a fun race. Be nice to your quads this week!

HHH - Good looking week. You're putting a solid block of training together.

Cocoon - Nice volume and a solid long run to cap it off.

JB - You certainly haven't lost much ground, if any. Might take a little bit to get some of the speed back but I'm a firm believer that speed comes from strength, and you're volume has been quite good.

Coyote - Solid week and nice racing. Should be fun to see what you can pull out in a faster (I assume?) road race in a few weeks.

Slo - Still very good volume and that long run might not have been everything you had in mind but it looks good to me.

Improving - Be nice to your hamstrings on those V02 days. My understanding is that those are important for a marathoner because they help improve efficiency at race pace, but I think there are also other ways to get there. Better to get to the line 95% fit but fully healthy.

LancRunner - Nice mile repeats. One of these days I'll find those Strava CRs RunnerSam cruelly stole from you and return the favor.

Bruin - Solid racing, congrats on the PR!

Working - Get better soon!

Coach - Take the positives and get after that sub-90 another day. I don't think you were ill prepared by any stretch. Just a rough day and some uncooperative weather. You certainly did what you're supposed to in a race: Compete. And you did it better than you ever have before if I'm remembering correctly…

RunnerSam - You'll be good to go this weekend. Toyed with the idea of hopping in just to see what it felt like after the long run this weekend then returned to my senses. I think you are more than ready for sub-2:45, especially with a few guys to work with.

Kid B - Get through the fatigue now and it'll pay off down the road. Good work!

Too Hot - Yeah, base is very aerobic. I'd think it's tough for a 7+ mile tempo or 40+ minute fartlek to be anaerobic though?

RunnersFix - Looking forward to following your race at CIM. Love stories of guys like yourself who stuck with it after college and are seeing it pay off now. Gives the rest of us something to dream about…

I still have not been able to get caught up. A few more comments.

Allen - I hope the visit to the specialist goes well. Let us know how things go. Our family had a rough patch with cancer a while back so I think I understand your perspective.

cocoon - Solid week! I'm wondering if you are going to finish the race ahead of me.

jewbacca - Good to hear that the calf is progressing.

statfanatic - Good looking week. We probably had similar winds on Saturday. It is really hard to gauge the impact of winds on pacing. Just trust in the fact that you put the effort in.

PutoMiudo - Good on you for pacing your dad. That's a pretty good time for a debut marathon at 53 if you ask me.

Coyote - Congrats on the AG win when not really pushing it.

slo - Good week. I suspect that moving target will settle down over the next two weeks as long as you are no longer feeling sick.

Bruin - Congrats on the NYCM results and that PR by 10 minutes. Well done.

A couple quick comments:

Allen - Take care of yourself, man. However that looks. I am sending positive energy your way. I also think the Mrs. should be involved. You need her in your corner, and you need to be in hers. As far as my racing weight, I used to be able to get down to 165, but pretty much stuck around 170 anymore.

OR - You know what you gotta do this weekend. Now go forth and do it.

Cocoon - based on your small sample of training I have seen, 3:10 looks conservative. Probably closer to 3:05. Good luck this last month.

stat - quality stuff as usual.

pewow - I like your season plan. Looks good.

Jeremy - sometimes these funks happen. Hopefully you can work through it and figure it out. You are a very talented runner.

Stone - Glad the back is better.. its go time baby!

TDR - Another solid week

Smoove - Get healthy so you can talk sh*t to me during the Orlando HM.

Pappy - Glad those knees are getting better.. I hope this continues.

GT - Good race coming off a big build.. I caught a little of the crap.. have some lung congestion myself. SUB 17 or DIE TRYING!

RGM - Recover well my friend

Allen - Hope you are well and stay well. Very nice 5k sir

GFMPH - 8+ hours is a very good week

AJ - nipped me on the mileage last week.. hopefully it evens out this week! Solid solid esp those milers.

OR - Give it hell this weekend. You will be A freaking OK

More pages to come.. Have to get some " work " done.

The discussion around OR's knee has prompted me to chime in about my knee situation. I am fairly certain that it is pes anserine bursitis. This is pretty much just inflammation of the bursa from overuse and not likely problems with the tendons. As I said, the next couple runs will be telling. I started treating it with ice a few times a day and ibuprofen (600mg) 2-3 times a day. I have had noticeable improvement and have continued to train without much of a problem. Just easy runs at this point. The true test will be tonight for my MLR workout. On schedule is another 5x1k VO2max workout, but I am going replace that with some tempo miles if I feel good. I'll determine the workout on the fly after I warm up. Maybe a 3mile tempo or a 2T+1E repeat. This injury has been brewing for a little while now. I sort of let it go since it would only be some discomfort in the first mile or two and then no pain for the rest of the run. In hindsight I should have tried to address the problem before it got worse. I am happy that what I am doing seems to be helping. I evaluate how things are progressing with my first few steps in the morning which are usually the worst. This is also a time when the effect of any pain killers are at their lowest.

Lastly, I thought the primary concern with taking NSAIDs and especially high doses is GI upset. I have not had any problems with this, but I only take the big doses after eating something. It is acetaminophen(Tylenol) where you have to worry about liver damage.

One more comment. I did miss that NSAIDs are a concern for kidneys.

RRR - Good luck with 90 this week. Would that be a mileage week PR? Stone - Glad to hear the back is improving. Can't compete if you aren't on the line so make sure it's right. Theodore - Same thought as Stone, but replace 'back' with 'knee' TDR - Fastest PR and slowest daily trainng pace in the group - sounds like those other guys have something to learn from you. Pappy - Great news on the knee front. Allen - Praying for you bud. (And more trivially, great 12 miler last week). Pewow - sounds like a fun race. agree that it's tough to complain about podiums. AJ - Are you taking workout recommendations from Slo again but keeping it on the down low this time? GoFaMiAnHo - I know you mentioned non GPS watch only, but doesn't running the same tried and true loops and knowing how long it takes you to complete them today versus a previous week/month/year kinda function the same way? Or do you block that out? I think I'd still be comparing to times I've previously run "Robert's Hill easy" even if unintentionally. OR - Good luck Saturday. When the PR feels guaranteed, I say go for broke. I'm sure the knees will be better and itching to go by then. Sub 6 - Safe travels. Have fun in Poland. I know one person that lives there, but when it comes down to it this is probably the only thing I know for sure about Poland:https://img.ifcdn.com/images/f3ca3d7930c6a67e85d28b310a8c2288acd8c8e28e5b8d5e3c05e6b4b18685e7_1.jpg Well, she taught me how to say "cheers" in Polish, but I think I butcher the pronuncation now. Working Harder - Feel better soon, as you said, at least it's good to have the explanation for the bad race now! team1 - Great report and great race. You say "I don't now how people do marathons", I just qualify it as "i don't know how people do downhill marathons." It's a whole other sort of pain for a race with an asterisk. HHH Runner - Your talk about getting excited about a big-time 5k goal was part of the seed planting on this one. Cocoon - Great long run. Agree that you should feel very confident about sub 3:10. JB - Sounds promising on the calf issue. Impressive job keeping the volume up. That's the most important part of marathon training anyway so you should be good moving forward. Stat - smart to take the down week when you're feeling it. Also, no need to apologize for long posts, especially when they're so insightful. Puto - Sounds like an awesome experience and congrats to your dad. Coyote Montane - I didn't know big horn sheep were a natural predator for Coyotes. Still Improving - Nice week. Hope you can stay healthy. Since it's been like 6 months - is 65 a relatively big week compared to last cycle or about average? Any clear changes you've made to what you planed to do this cycle compared to last? LancRunner - I'll try to get after it but you definitely have a head start. Great workouts this week. Bruin - Congrats! 10 minute PR and negative splitting a tough course, and somehow it came as no surprise to (I think) most of us because your training is so strong. Now that the 2:45 monkey is off your back you can go for sub 2:30. James - Don't beat yourself up too much. Family comes first. Also important to look at all you've accomplished instead of the little things you didn't. Coach Jeff - Really great race even if you weren't happy. PRs are PRs and that mental game is strong. Bonkers heart rate data. I think anyone who shows up to a race where it's 73/73 at the starting line and thinks "not too bad" really needs to make a trip to another climate and run a race just to see where their true fitness is, because it may just be permanently masked. What's that? Boston 2019...should be in for a wild ride on those hills. RunnerSam - Good luck this weekend. I think with two weeks left you should be ok even with the missed running. Just be healthy and have a couple days here to fill up those glycogen reserves hopefully. Thanks for the 5ks tip. Definitely planning it over season (or seasons...it's pretty open ended). No need to set one 5k peak race like you do for a marathon, but even that sub 3 goal was placed over seasons. SOBO - also congrats on the tough course PR! KidB - You're right. that 20 miler with so much time left before Houston is a good sign. Jeremy - Sorry to hear about the cramping. You've said previously you don't like it when a shoe has enough drop for your heel to touch the ground when you're running? Do you try to run heel up completely? That's a really huge load on the calf muscle and may have something to do with the long race issues you see. Not that you need to convert all the way to heel striking, but there may be some minor modifications or a calf relaxation at the bottom of your stride that may be more efficient for longer distances if you ever want to return. Did you switch to Altras because of a pain somewhere else? Knees?

too hot wrote:

GT: Regarding goal setting, I really don't think you need to pin down a number. If you choose something like sub-17:30, for example, you may not be able to hit that mark or you might be able to go much faster. Who knows. If you structure training correctly and go by feel, the right pace will come to you. Many sport psychologists will agree that process-oriented goals are superior to outcome-based goals.

I'm aware of the concept, maybe I can be a little bit more specific about what I mean by "goal". In this case, the "goal" is more for motivation than it is the only measuring stick to gauge success. By picking a number that seems impossible today, I will formulate a plan for process steps and structured training that will help me get somewhere that seems out of reach today. Now, I could (very very doubtfully) run 16:59 by St. Patricks day. In which case, no big deal, I can set a new "goal" and start the cycle again. It could take me many many seasons and I never get below 17:30, but that will be ok too, because it's further than I am now and I'll have learned something about myself in the process. I'll also note that I don't plan to go out tomorrow and start running 1k's at 5:28 pace because I set an arbitrary long term goal, and I don't plan to set all of this goal on one ultimate final race where I simply pass or fail. It's still a process and I will still derive fulfillment along the way from things other than wherever I end up. To put it simply, I won't consider myself a failure if I never run 16:59, but waking up at 4:30 when its 40° outside and I can hear the rain on the roof, thinking "I told some dudes I've never met I'm going to run 16:59. I need to get out of bed right now or it's never going to happen" is a far superior motivator for me than "getting out of bed is the right thing to do." Same for going down to the basement for deadlifts after Jr.'s gone to bed instead of watching a 30 Rock rerun. Same for adding hill sprints and form drills. It's probably mental parlor tricks to pick arbitrary goals such as they are, but it works for me. I suspect it's rooted in the same sort of personality differences that have you and I approach other parts of training differently as well.

I guess I'm just channeling Stonecutters's running mentor on this one... "Find something a bit out of your reach and go for it."

2018 NYC Marathon Race Report

Training: After coming off a very rough Boston Marathon in 2:54:12 (I ended up in the medical tent for hypothermia and had difficulty running fast workouts for over a month after), I did a full 18 week marathon training cycle before the NYC marathon. As part of the training cycle, I ran a downhill half marathon in 1:13, a local 10K with one significant hill in 34:52, and a local 5K high school preseason cross country race also open the public in 17:05, and then a tuneup half 4 weeks out from the marathon in 1:16 on a fairly flat course. I did speed work sessions such as 10x800, 6x1, 4x1.5, 3x2, 2x5K ranging anywhere from around 5:00 pace for the 800’s to 5:25 pace for the 5K’s. I also ran tempos up to 10 miles ranging from sub-GMP (6:15) to HMP (5:50) with a goal of a fast finish to HMP or even 10K (5:35). I did one fatigue simulation tempo with a 2x10K (1st at 5:50 pace, 2nd at 5:39 pace) with a 10 minute slow jog Recovery in between. I also did progressive long runs going from Easy to sub-GMP/HMP and 3 20-22 mile long runs with 26.2K at near-GMP. I trained every day and also cross trained with Orange Theory Fitness workouts which consisted of treadmill HIIT workouts, rowing HIIT workouts, and HIIT strength training. My peak mileage week was 110 miles and I had a 3 week taper before the race (approximately 80 miles, 60 miles, 30 miles pre-race). Most of my miles besides the quality workouts were easy or recovery runs at 7:00-8:00 pace range.

Carb load/diet: During the training cycle, I tried to eat a high-carb diet (60%) focused on mostly on unprocessed, natural foods with occasional splurging with fast foods and desserts. I stayed for the most part away from chips and soda. I did a 4 day carb load before the race where I tried to eat >4 grams/pound of healthy carbs and keep my carbs at >70% macros while eating a low-fat, lowish-protein diet. After an early pasta dinner the night before the race, I only consumed Gatorade and bagels overnight. I had oatmeal, a banana, and 1 ½ bagels plus more Gatorade and a cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee with light cream the morning of the race. Before the race started, I consumed a Gu Roctane gel and a Saltstick capsule and washed it down with a little more Gatorade.

Prerace: I flew into NYC on a redeye flight and arrived on Friday morning. I picked up my bib at the expo. I did the Marathon Course Bus Tour with my wife which took over 5 hours due to the heavy traffic in NYC on a Friday afternoon. I then went to a carb loading dinner with Newbee Running Club a NYRR club that sponsored me for a local competitive start. I did a short treadmill workout in the hotel afterwards with some strides. I tried to run outside my midtown hotel but it was raining and there was too much pedestrian congestion. I slept well on Friday night. On Saturday morning, I participated in a Strava shakeout run in Central Park. I then met up with my running club from California (BURN Running) for another carb loading lunch. I rested in my hotel until dinner where I ate medium sized pasta dinner for free at the Applebee’s Pastathon Event. Surprisingly, I slept pretty well on Saturday night before the race and was not plagued by prerace jitters that I have always had before other marathons. I took a midtown bus at 5:30 am along with 2 other runner friends and arrived at the start village around 6:15 am. I killed off 3 hours by chatting with my friends who were also running NYC marathon. I had enough throwaway layers of clothing and a throwaway blanket so was pretty comfortable waiting for the race start. I also used the portapotty 3 times so was able to empty out my bladder and bowels pretty good before the race (no issues during the race at all).

Race Goals: A goal: Sub-2:45

B goal: PR (sub-2:52)

C goal: sub-3

Race Splits (splits from NYC timing mats, GPS was a little off)

5K: 19:38 6:19 pace

10K 38:35 5:59 pace

15K 58:06 6:12 pace

20K 1:17:31 6:26 pace

Half 1:21:46 6:15 pace

25K 1:37:00 6:33 pace

30K 1:56:05 6:07 pace

35K 2:15:06 6:06 pace

40K 2:34:10 6:03 pace

Finish 2:42:22 5:48 pace

1:10 negative split for 2nd half

Race: I moved into the corrals half an hour before the start. I had a sub-2:45 paceband from FindMyMarathon with even effort and conservative start pacing strategy. I tried to run the first uphill mile on Verrazzano Bridge slow and just followed the flow of runners rather than trying to actively run past runners. I think my first mile split was over 7 minutes. I let the downhill on the 2nd mile carry me to a faster pace but did not try to speed up consciously. After entering Brooklyn, I tried to settle into a sustainable pace while trying to stay at or a little below the pace targets on my paceband. My hydration/fueling plan was to alternate a Maurten 100 gel and a Gu Roctane gel every 30 minutes and to take water to wash down these gels. On every other water stop I tried to drink a little Gatorade Endurance. I followed this steady pace speeding up a little on downhills and slowing down a little on uphills to maintain even effort. The hills at Lafayette, Pulaski, and even Queensboro did not feel particularly difficult. I ran through Queens and into Manhattan First Avenue continuing to maintain a steady pace. My goal was to run steady for 20 miles and then to pick up the speed a little on the last 10K if I was feeling strong. I was still feeling good at mile 18 so I decided to pick up the pace gradually heading into Bronx. I remember the hill at mile 23 being challenging but I was still able to run it at a 6:30ish pace. I then was able to speed up in Central Park to the finish line.

After finishing, I had pretty sore legs for the “death march” out of Central Park but actually otherwise felt fine. This makes me wonder if I could’ve gone a little faster through the marathon. However, I did achieve over a 10 minute PR from my race in 2017 Chicago, got my A goal for Tokyo and Berlin qualification, and even ended up running over 80% age graded time so I was very happy with my result. I think I paced the race well given the negative split I was able to achieve. I felt it was a good idea not to be too greedy early in the race to prevent the late race crash and burn. The weather for the marathon was basically perfect but I do feel on a flatter course like Berlin with similar weather I do have a chance at a sub-2:40 so that is my next goal for the marathon. I plan to do 2 weeks of easy running before getting back into training for my next race which is at this time undecided. My hope is to do 1 international marathon (Tokyo, London, Berlin) a year to complete my Abbott World Marathons Major Six Star Finisher medal and also to continue to do local races on the side.

Thanks for reading my race report. I will post comments on everyone's week later.

Stone - Yes, I know what I gotta do. Need to have a clear mind, and need to be rrady to roll. In that vein, I did some chores around the house this morning (I have the day off from work). Got out the ladder and cleared my gutters (leaves, stcks, muck), and then I fixed my bathroom sink drain, which has been a problem for a while. Glad to do that, as I am a pretty bad plumber. In other words, I want nothing’on my mind come Saturday morning.

Richmond weather is looking good....low 40s at the gun. Some wind, though, in the forecast (NW@11), and so I will need to keep that in mind. Hope it changes for the better. Also hoping to find a good 2:45-ish group to run with.

SI - Thanks for the additional input...it is helpful.

RRR - Thanks for the remarks. Your comments always encourage me.

GT - Yeah...going for broke has crossed my mind, a number of times. The ONLY thing that gives me a small bit of pause is the amount of work I have put into this build. I have a lot on the line on Saturday.

GT - Biggest week in awhile for me and my third Overall in the 90s if I hit it.. my overall high mileage week was 101 in Jan 2017.

OR - the race is Saturday correct? Do they have tracking and mats? I will def follow along and be rooting for a good time.

Bruin - Very informative and well-written report. And, truly, a PERFECTLY executed race. Bravo!

OR - "I have a lot on the line on Saturday." Purge this thought. For the next couple days, relax and happily anticipate your upcoming success. Ditto for the first few miles on Saturday. As the race progresses, you will intuitively find the perfect pace for the day -- a pace that's challenging, but doable. You know that feeling -- you experience it during those closing miles nearly every day.

RRR - Yes, the race is on Sat.,and it has tracking and mats. I am bib number 203. Thank you for the support. I will be thinking of you guys.

Allen - What a great post. Will indeed purge that thought from my mind, and will do my best to relax and be happy. Just got home from some errands...filled the tank with gas, and got some grocery items for the hotel room. Work tomorrow and then heading to Richmond on Friday.