You need better sources keto-bro
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/americans-meat-consumption-set-to-hit-a-record-in-2018/
You need better sources keto-bro
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/americans-meat-consumption-set-to-hit-a-record-in-2018/
YMMV wrote:
The government recommendations did not limit sugar
Maybe your parsing the word "limit", but the general guidelines used the same exact language for sugar as it did for fat: "avoid too much".
https://wordpress.uchospitals.edu/kidney/files/1980-guidelines.jpg7x200 at 800m goal pace, 16 hours fasted. The fastest track session in ten years. Won't lie I was a little punch-drunk the rest of the afternoon, as is the case with early-buildup lactate sessions. Of course, if I was packing in cereal and chips all day like the old days, I surely would have run a couple more, right? haha
Came home and had a broiled sirloin with spring mix salad topped with blue cheese and avocado. Dessert nightcap of Kevita tart cherry kombucha with a shot of vodka, with a dark chocolate dipped in sour cream. Caesar himself didn't live any better, I am certain of it (well by my age, he was dead lol)
Did you break 3:00 in any of them?
Keto at work wrote:
Did you break 3:00 in any of them?
I started each 200 on the 3:00
Last one was fastest...run on pure hate due to watch issues with #6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wy-W-pYldsthank you for sharing your experience.
I believe these are two different things: advising an elite athlete e.g. middle distance about optimum nutrition and advising an aged person staying as fit as possible age wise. Happy that you are making most of your life. we all should live better than caesar did ?
Here is an amusing, yet fairly detailed overview of research of fats v. carbs in sports performance. For a summary, go to 22:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtE_PNedBuE
Basically, it appears that a well-formulated keto baseline diet confers advantages for efforts lasting over two hours, with carb supplementation in-competition. For more intense competition, it may be better to add some carbs within 12 hours or so for competition, as well having intake during. This is essentially like the old "carb-loading" protocol, except that the "depletion" phase (which isn't really very depleting once you have switched to burning fat efficiently) is the baseline, and adding carbs is the limited targeting element.
This presentation is focused on performance, so addresses the OP, it doesn't go into detail on keto's widespread anti-inflammatory, weight control and overall health benefits, especially for older athletes. There is plenty of literature on those aspects.
thanks for the link.
seems like two parties argueing about the same apple watched from different sides.
personally, as an aged runner the reduction of inflammation is important. coming back from the track with real stiff muscles prolongs recovery significantly. if not enough recovery time then injury will come. so the importancy to keep inflammation low is becoming more and more important with my age. ...keep on exploring yourself. but i doubt eliud kipchoge could go that fast without perfect carb refuelling during the marathon. faster staff needs glycogen anyway. longer stuff ist not athletics. ultra is a different world.
gullideckel wrote:
thanks for the link.
seems like two parties argueing about the same apple watched from different sides.
personally, as an aged runner the reduction of inflammation is important. coming back from the track with real stiff muscles prolongs recovery significantly. if not enough recovery time then injury will come. so the importancy to keep inflammation low is becoming more and more important with my age. ...keep on exploring yourself. but i doubt eliud kipchoge could go that fast without perfect carb refuelling during the marathon. faster staff needs glycogen anyway. longer stuff ist not athletics. ultra is a different world.
I don't know Kipchoge's diet, but if he were to train all of his long/easy days on keto (burning fat), and his intense days with carbs, I suspect that might be optimal in the long run, if for no other reason than enhanced recovery (but probably a bit higher proportion of fat-burning as well, which spares precious glycogen).
As far as inflammation and illness/injury -resistance, I know that for me, intermittent fasting is at least as important as keto/targeted carbs. After a hard sprint session on Wed, a hard rock climbing session (5.13) on Thurs I was able to turn around today and get in a solid 18-miler, with no bonk despite my longest run in the last 6 months being only 11. Having these different metabolic "gears" at my disposal is pretty amazing.
YMMV wrote:
As far as inflammation and illness/injury -resistance
99% of the claims about "oh noes, inflammation!" and inflammatory foods are made-up pseudo-scientific nonsense.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/inflammatory-claims-about-inflammation_b_7465534.htmlhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-messy-facts-about-diet-and-inflammation/I see this thread has devolved into another angry back and forth full of insults and accusations. Ugh.
That doesn't produce a meaningful exchange of information.
Most of the information in this thread is either wholly wrong, mostly wrong or has some errors.
I have read a tonne on the lifestyle (don't call it a diet) - about a year of reading and video-watching, trying my best to read contravening information to get a balance - tried to stay out of the echo chamber. Also talking to scientists and people who have stayed with and haven't stayed with keto/LCHF protocols.
The latest rhetoric out of people's mouths who are against keto say this phrase, "it is very difficult to go keto, most people don't end up being ketogenic,"
I doubt that. I did it for a year and am now Low Carb/High Fat (LCHF), the "light version" of the lifestyle - not quite keto.
While getting to and being keto for nearly a year:
I ate as little as around zero grams of carbs and around 5 and 5-10 grams in a day. Lost the extra weight that I had from post surgery semi-sedentary behavior. Had the brain fog, waited a long time to make sure I was keto and the fog goes, the appetite calms down and the general felt good- not euphoric or anything, just decent. All good.
YouTube up and listen without prejudice to some video talks with Dr. Volek, Dr. Phinney et al and just learn from their perspective.
Here is my anecdotal experience:
Over the past few years (not able to run much) I would road cycle during the spring-summer-autumn starting at about 60K rides, and build up to 170K - riding a century 100-mile plus 1-3 times on a carb-centric diet. Always felt bonky on the big rides, but doable.
When fully keto adapted, I rode a few short rides 60K-ish then went straight into a century 102-miles on a hot day 90F 32C.
Got home and thought that I could have done another two or three hours but out of sheer boredom and having other things to do with my day, I stopped. One water bottle with water only - I was fasted too - nothing to eat to start the day. Ketones-as-fuel dramatically worked.
Late sometime (weeks?) now able to run, I ran up a small mountain trail but with lots of steep climbs that require nearly walking. Had the craziest lactic acid storm in my legs that I had never experienced before, not at the end of an 800m race or going too hard in 400m repetitions, which at a time in my life I would do with reckless abandon....
It was eye-opening
I talked to one of the top exercise physiologists about this Trent Stellingwerff and he said that your V02max is shunted by up to 5% on a keto lifestyle, which is huge. Terrible for middle-distance runners and may even effect marathon runners.
In fact, I interviewed Zach Bitter and even as an ultra, he includes some carbs around heavy training and racing.
I may slide in and out of keto here and there, but it takes about nine months of constant vigilance to become 100% fully keto. So any studies that are shorter than that will be missing some information.
Additionally, you need to keep protein to a moderate volumes, because your body will convert that and take you out of keto.
I talked to the world's leading scientist on skeletal muscle tissue and an authority on amino acids Dr. Luc Van Loon and he did a massive study - a 500,000 Euro study - on proteins and aminos acids with a special isotope tracer to see where aminos go and when and how fast etc etc etc.......one result from that is you need to time protein consumption well and consume up to 25 grams of whole food protein within 1 hour of vigorous physical exercise for best absorption - and just before sleep. Well that knocks you out of keto.
Having a decade off of running, due to three surgeries and not being age 25 (far from it) I don't care about training well, but I can tell you that using the LCHF + Van Loon protocol has kept the weight down and my muscles respond well from hard cycles, runs, weight sessions or hitting the heavy bag really hard....it has been very noticeable.
One thing: I cut out all refined carbs. So any carbs that I do take in 10grams to 100grams in a day are whole food sourced and the occasional beer.
....but do your research....from both perspectives and learn, rather than throwing around bs bro science and trust me, there is a lot of bs bro science out there and in this thread.
I have no problems with the idea of going keto again, I just like running up big hills and having a beer here and there and having more protein than the diet/lifestyle allows.
Intermittent fasting is suggested as a thing to, to provoke ketosis - running fastest for two hours, once used to it, is pretty cool....
Here is my Zach Bitter interview and you can find an article I did after talking to Van Loon and Stellingwerff there too.....
http://athleticsillustrated.com/interviews/the-zach-bitter-interview/
Sorry:
Runny fasted (not fastest) is pretty cool.....
From the Huffpost article:
"We also know that two things can reduce inflammation: fasting and exercise. These result in an increase in blood levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate and lactic acid; these chemicals through a complex series of biochemical reactions turn off genes involved in triggering the production of inflammasomes. Any other claims of foods that reduce inflammation are hype, and unproven."
He fails to mention that another end-product is acetone, as a result of ketogenesis. This can be measured with a breath analyzer (Ketonix), which indirectly monitors beta-hydroxybutyrate. I am able to use this to assess my ketotic state after meals, exercise, fasting etc.. He is wrong in that a ketogenic diet ( which he "suspects" causes inflammation due to saturated fats) mimics fasting in lowering insulin and generating ketones for metabolic function. It is how our ancestors fueled themselves most of the time, before cheap and abundant carbs and oils were at arm's length throughout the day.
Yet another "expert" with a narrow and poor understanding of diet and it's effects. Whether inflammation is the cause of disease, or only it's mediator, lowering it through diet and exercise improves health outcomes across the board. I have lived this and seen every health marker improve for going on three years now. Meanwhile I watch my cohorts lose their health every day as they feed the fires of inflammation with processed, high-carb and high seed-oil foods.
Chris- You are a little late to the dance, but are quite welcome to compare notes, whether it is being able to train effortlessly for hours without carb supplementation or citing Volek and Phinney (and I'll raise you Cordain, Eades, Perlmutter, OFM, Shanahan et al, et al ;)
YMMV,
I don't get it. I cannot be "late to the game," I found the thread when I found it. There is no "late-to-the-game." Why say that?
The information I share is from the scientific community, not my personal opinion, except for when I shared my personal experience and stated such. It's not late - it is relevant or irrelevant.
Only Rojo and Wejo can decide if I am welcome or not welcome to share. Again, confused by that comment.
Anyway, I am not into one-upping someone on their scientific research. Just citing sources is all I was doing. I have watched everyone you have name (I am pretty sure) on YouTube and others. They are all drinking from the same spigot.
I was just saying that to those who are biased against the Keto lifestyle to listen to both sides, not to form an opinion without research.
Out.
Don't worry. YMMV is just another entitled arrogant moran preaching to the whole world (LRC size) about his small ways of living. Can't stand different opinions.
Actually, I love different opinions. Just back them with information I haven't seen a million times already.
As for "small ways of living"?? WTF does that even mean?
You're the old apostle of the new bacon religion. Good luck with ignoring the reason and your sticky lard adventures!
I’ve agreed with everything that you’ve said. My wife and I have completely switched to fat adapted training for this marathon training block and we have had our best build up for a marathon in 12 years. I’ll never say that we are on a keto diet, but we have optimize our carbohydrate intake to maximize our training. I also utilize intermediate fasting and low carb and I haven’t felt this good in decades. However, it’s taken a while to become fat adapted. I don’t feel most people will be convinced to become fat adapted, because people just love bread, pasta, donuts, and cookies too much. It is totally understandable, who doesn’t love them! Nutrition is a individual journey, and not worth fighting about. Thanks for all your great information.
CaptainTuttle262 wrote:
I’ve agreed with everything that you’ve said. My wife and I have completely switched to fat adapted training for this marathon training block and we have had our best build up for a marathon in 12 years. I’ll never say that we are on a keto diet, but we have optimize our carbohydrate intake to maximize our training. I also utilize intermediate fasting and low carb and I haven’t felt this good in decades. However, it’s taken a while to become fat adapted. I don’t feel most people will be convinced to become fat adapted, because people just love bread, pasta, donuts, and cookies too much. It is totally understandable, who doesn’t love them! Nutrition is a individual journey, and not worth fighting about. Thanks for all your great information.
Hello YMMV. How are you doing today?