As a miler, am I just not built for 5k?

College miler, some are giving you advice to alter your XC training. I strongly agree. Some of the advice given to you on this thread is unnecessarily specific. Getting deep in the weeds regarding muscle twitch ratio is a bit much. Physiologists tend to want to see athletes do a 200m TT before they even guess regarding an athlete's muscle twitch ratio. Some are putting you in a FT lane as if you are: Marlies Gohr, Marita Koch or Silke Moller. Athletes have various psychological tolerances. It takes an unique athlete willing to average roughly four seconds slower than 200m PB x 4, an 800m athlete. Women college XC is an entirely different psychological challenge. As most likely an 800m specialist, your 200/400 speed is more important than you slogging it out over 6K on a XC course. For an 800/1500 runner, college XC is just pre-season. Don't get worn out on the tempo runs and mile repeats. Good running ahead.

^^^This. You're a genuine talent on the track in the 800/1500. Take it easy in X-country - it isn't your domain, and not worth ruining yourself over. Do enough for the team; keep a little speed in and wait it out until track. Don't kill yourself in X-country speed queen!

Ironside, I have run a 200 in a fun run meet and ran 27 flat. So my 800

pr IS 4 seconds slower per 200 than that, what does this indicate? I know some 800 girls who can run 24s in the 200, this is not me. This is also why I think of myself as a miler rather than 800 specialist.

Thank you and jonnyj for the advice. As far as salvaging early track season, I’m a little worried about the damage I may have already done with 3 full out effort xc races, and too much of (possibly) the wrong kind of workouts. Definitely not feeling great at the moment, but usually I snap back quickly. I’m hoping, perhaps a week of easy running, maybe a little cross training, and then go into a schedule of steady, relaxed runs and track workouts? My coach is willing to figure this out with me.

You are absolutely correct to think of yourself as a rather miler than an 800, or at least a 400/800 runner. FT/ST is a false dichotomy in that it is actually more of a spectrum than on/off. Those 24.xx girls are far to the FT side (and should be running 54-55 for 400 if they are near 2:04) whereas you are more what I would call "middle-twitch" (MT), and thrive on workouts like 10x400. The more ST girls are like the ones you describe doing mile repeats.

I disagree with shorter active recovery for repeats, unless you dial the pace WAAYYY back on the running portions. FT fibers actually need LONGER recovery between workbouts. The ST girls are jumping around after 30 seconds of recovery while the MT girls will still be walking slow with hands on their hips.

What you and your coach need to know about 5K and cross country is that MOST of the girls running 16:30/20:30 are going to be slower-twitch girls who eventually will run sold 10K-marathon times. They will never scare 4:30 unless they are true pro-level. Just like you should not try to keep up with the 24.xx girls during speed work (you will likely get injured), you shouldn't try to keep up with the 16:00-16:30 girls during aerobic work. They have huge aerobic capacities and are in their element at 5:20 pace, not yours. You should be back with the 17:00-type girls for 800-mile repeats and tempos at race pace or slower. Also lower overall volume at those paces.

At least you are recognizing signs of overtraining before sickness and/or injury sets in. So many athletes and coaches don't understand the need to individualize around this issue and end up as casualties. Back off now and secure your indoor/outdoor seasons. You must respect your body's signals and be patient, it WILL pay off.

This has been a very interesting thread to read through and I appreciate the sincere responses being provided here. A question for the uninitiated: As a collegiate, presumably scholarship/partial scholarship athlete, how much control/influence do you have over your training and competition schedule? I'm guessing it varies between programs/coaches but, in general, how does this work? Thanks.

I know that feel bro

youre a fast or intermiate twitcher not a slow twitcher is what it is. But theres an easy way to run a fast 5k anyways. Pro 10km runners are more likely to be fast twitchers than the general population. We dont think of the 5k as being a cross between the 100m and the marathon but it is. Thats why your XC times are worse than your track times, running on rough terrain requires higher endurance.

Its easy to get that. Sprinting 100 meters requires many steps per second. This raises the heart rate immensely. so jog 800 meters around the track to get the heart rate warmed up. Sprint 100 meters from a rolling start. keep on jogging, 300 meter recovery. when the times start to get slower stop and recover. do another set and try for gradually improving times. 14.8 14.75 14.61 try to milk this part and ease the throttle gradually.

The final and third set is the most important. Burnout set. the first rep is all out try to run as fast as you can for 100 meters from a standing start. this is not only great sprint training which will improve form in 5k races, while kicking to finish first, it is exaughsting compared to the flying sprints. then jog for 800 meters and try to match but not exceed the time with a flying sprint. 300 meter recovery time until the flying 100 meter time gets SLOWER. Now you are relying on slow twitch fibers to continue running. Do a 10 or 20 minute cooldown at a slow pace to get a workout of these too after training your fast twitch on the track.

note many people not used to sprinting fast pull hamstrings when they try too hard without warming up enough first. this requires an apporiate warmup such as running stairs high knee drills and strides, skipping and bounding exercises etc. the 800 meters before isnt so much for warming up as to add beneficial stimuli and oxygen so you should already be warmed up before you do this workout. the only part of this workout that should feel extremely difficult is the 100 from a standing start. everything else must be run slower than potential to maintain smooth form or the workout would be too brutal.

Of course FT/ST is a spectrum. It's used as short-hand to think about relative strengths and weaknesses among distance runners. Usain Bolt is going to be a genuine high-FTer, not a 800/miler. But we're speaking of distance runners here and this young woman is on the "speed/FT" end of the distance running spectrum. Your comment that "FT fibers actually need longer recovery between workbouts" is precisely the point that you seem to be missing. They (the FT runners) want it because they're relatively weaker aerobically and want/need their anaerobic system to catch up. Yes, it's not a separate "system" and, yes, it's also a spectrum (one "system" doesn't shut off and the other start), but it's useful simplification for discussion purposes. The ST girls don't use their weaker anaerobic "systems" that much in the first place at XC paces so are ready to go more quickly. And, yes, she should in fact dial back the speed and/or dramatically shorten the reps, take short, jogging recoveries, and go again. 10x400 in the middle of XC season is nonsensical assuming you're referring to classic 1500 race pace type work. But if she's doing them at 5km race pace with 100m jogs (35-45 seconds at the slowest), then that would be a worthy XC session for her as a starting point. Not a ton of lactate build-up by only going 400m at that speed, can clear it relatively quickly, but the short, jogging recovery won't allow her powerful anaerobic "system" recover fully.

note when i say slow twitch fibers I mean slow twitching ability. It may scientifically be that more fast twitch fibers actually get recruited when fatigued as I have read however, they are being used for endurance as in a 5k race.

To clarify, my main objective is not to become a great xc runner, but to finish the season strong and ready for track. I want to do well at xc nationals for my team especially, but this thread indicates I might run a better xc race and 5k off miler training than strength training! I’ve enjoyed reading the logic of why certain training feels good, and that feeling good doesn’t mean you’re not working hard enough. Thank you all.

re. the ‘rest time’ disagreement, what I feel looking back on my experiences is that short rest has felt fine with short, low volume reps. Xc has been long, high volume reps. Thus my rebelling legs, probably.

A ‘short rest’ example workout during track I really enjoy is 2 sets of 6 200s at 800 pace, with decending rest from 1:30 to 30 seconds. 7 minutes between the 2 sets. I feel this workout really helped with finding the right pace in an 800 race.

If this reply was intended for me, you and your coach obviously will decide what's best for you rather than listening to some random yahoos on a message board (including me). I think most of the posters, also including me, have agreed that the typical XC training of hard tempos and long repeats isn't well-suited to you as a mid-D specialist. So, in that sense, and for what it's worth (which is not much), you'll run better XC off miler training than "traditional" XC training. But I would quibble with the idea that that's the best training for you for XC. It's not. It's just better than the worse alternative of doing poor training. If your goal is to run the best you can in XC and still position yourself well for track, consider adding shorter reps and shorter recoveries but at XC race paces to your training portfolio. Anyway, I'm glad that this board has perhaps given you some clarity and some avenues to pursue, and I wish you the best of luck!

@The Floyd, I hear you and that all makes sense. Thank you very much.

The bottom line here is that you should prioritize making XC fun instead of a stress or a chore. Even if you only duplicate your previous 20:30, your temmates should be grateful to have you aboard.

Duplicating 20 :30 is not a good result.

The first race of the season should be in under 21:00 goal time and if you are feeling it try to break 20:30. My seasons of cross country pretty much every meet was a pr and I ran 19:11 after running 23 minutes on the same course or slower at first (in two seasons). This was while able to run faster in top speed sprints t than the true long distance be types running faster than 17 minutes for 5k xc.

Theoretically it should take at least 4 years for an xc runner to get 100 percent fit. 6 years and more of training you may still improve by getting more economical and putting in more sheer effort. So aim to get gradually better every single race.

Final tip run your miles on soft surfaces whenever you can. This is good for cross country because it increases your heart rate more because you can't bounce as far On grass or dirt as the pavement. It must be gripped and pulled activating the hamstring better.

Good result for this season is under 20:00 on your last three races.