Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

Thanks for the explanation, jewbacca. Very informative. While I'm not a Daniels guy, I'm always impressed by the thoughtfulness with which those of you who build on his methods approach your training. Says a lot for you and for him.

If I can ask a followup question: when you say that you feel limited by an under-developed VO2 max, are you talking about your performance in the marathon specifically? If that's the case, is it accurate to say that you're thinking somewhat along the same lines as Allen was when he was talking about the gaps between his 5k and marathon performance at different stages in his career? (I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who PR'ed at shorter distances coming off marathon training, which seems like the looking-glass version of what you're talking about...)

Bruin: Welcome to the thread. Your PRs at 5k/10k are somewhat but not a whole lot slower than mine were when I ran 2:44 at Chicago about fifteen years ago (16:30s/34:20s). I never ran a half marathon during that period so I can't make a comparison there. If you're doing roughly in the 80s for mileage, that would be about where I was. When I look at the week you posted, though, I see at least three workouts that look significantly more difficult than anything I did, and quite possibly beyond anything I could have done, at that time (that would be both Sundays, Tuesday, and quite possibly Wednesday and Thursday - I'm not really sure what that Wednesday looked like and like Gordon I'm a little confused about the 2 x 5k on Thursday). I doubt very seriously whether I could have done all of them in the course of eight days.

Hopefully what that means for you is that you're in significantly better shape than I was in when I ran 2:44, which ought to give you a good shot at achieving your goal if not going well under it (allowing for the fact that NYC is a significantly more difficult course than Chicago).

Pappy: Happy to hear you've been enjoying my weeks. Gotta keep you guys entertained with the names because the training itself is not terribly impressive! I'm intrigued by your plaster approach. What I've been doing is taping over the cracks with low-profile drywall tape, covering over that with lightweight spackle (OneTime, I think it's called), hand-sanding the spackle, and then repeating the spackle-and-sand as necessary (generally takes two coats). The spackle is a lot easier to work with than drywall mud, particularly when I'm working in spaces that we're living in, and it seems to be holding up fine, though our walls are in pretty good shape, which helps.

Bruin 1996- are you for real? If so, is 2:45 a typo? 5 quality days in 8 days... One day of recovery after a 23 miler with 21 at goal marathon pace then three days back to back quality with 10 mile tempo @5:45, 4 mile tempo@5:37 and finishing off with a 2 x 5k in 16:33-16:19? One day recovery then a 1:16 half. That’s insane. I’m shooting for sub 2:30 and I could definitely not run all those workouts in those times in 8 days.

Just looking at the Hansons-inspired quality days of 2x3 miles, 10 mile tempo, and long run at MP+30s, those are in line with pace targets for at the very least a guy with a 2:3x low marathon goal. Then you ran an untapered (?) half marathon PR. You're fit.

going faster miles an hour wrote:

Pappy: Happy to hear you've been enjoying my weeks. Gotta keep you guys entertained with the names because the training itself is not terribly impressive! I'm intrigued by your plaster approach. What I've been doing is taping over the cracks with low-profile drywall tape, covering over that with lightweight spackle (OneTime, I think it's called), hand-sanding the spackle, and then repeating the spackle-and-sand as necessary (generally takes two coats). The spackle is a lot easier to work with than drywall mud, particularly when I'm working in spaces that we're living in, and it seems to be holding up fine, though our walls are in pretty good shape, which helps.

Your weeks are a lot better than mine, even without the fancy names.

For the DIY home improvement part of the week. My plaster turned 110 this year. I'm the 3rd owner of the house and it has all the original woodwork. The plaster in the house is actually in really good shape. There are a few cracks though and a couple spots the plaster pulled away from the lath. Somehow, maybe in the 50's the 1st or 2nd owner (They lived together) decided to cover the cracks by it appears putting a blob of plaster in their hand, cupping their hand along the crack and smearing it on. No, they did not sand it. So, there are ridges in the walls where the cracks were. The cracks also came back.

I'm a lazy person. I hand sanded all of a 1-foot section before the belt sander came out. My belt sander is 3 inches wide. It takes the ridge off fast and then I let it dig in about 1/8 of an inch. Once that is done I use a fast-drying spray paint so the drywall mud doesn't put moisture into the plaster which would ruin it. After that, I just mud it, tape it, and mud it. I use a wet sponge instead of sanding to smooth it out. I've been fixing the rooms for 15 years now off and on. This is by far the quickest way and none of the cracks have come back. A couple areas I actually had to replace plaster for drywall because the plaster was loose. This was mostly around a couple of pocket doors.

slo-twitch wrote:

Bruin 1996- are you for real? If so, is 2:45 a typo? 5 quality days in 8 days... One day of recovery after a 23 miler with 21 at goal marathon pace then three days back to back quality with 10 mile tempo @5:45, 4 mile tempo@5:37 and finishing off with a 2 x 5k in 16:33-16:19? One day recovery then a 1:16 half. That’s insane. I’m shooting for sub 2:30 and I could definitely not run all those workouts in those times in 8 days.

I had the same reaction as slo. I just ran 2:40 and I cant come close to any of those workouts much less all of them in 8 days. My half PR of 1:16 was fully tapered. I couldn’t come close to 1:16 given the week you just had. I’d give you 2:35 or better. With that said a word of warning: NYC is a difficult course and the logistics are a drain. If you go out to fast you may be disappointed at NYC marathon.

Just time for a quick fly by today. I have not participated in this weekly thread in the past but might drop in some more in the future.

Congrats again Smoove on your well-executed run.

Likewise Andy Durfresne that's a really good PR! - we are acquainted from another venue.

And hi to Allen - taking a breather from the geezer thread.

GT - great report and well executed race. For what’s its worth my PR was 3:00:52 after 4 marathons so you’re ahead of the AJ curve.

runrincerepeat wrote:

OR - weather is hitting here now so headed your way. This morning was the last hot humid run. Tom morn is mid 50s and 40s after that. Looking at 30s by Tuesday. Thank You Jesus! Just did a mini OR flyer before the storm hit. 5miles from 7:30 down to sub 6. Felt pretty good since I did the big workout yesterday. Looks like mid 40s to 50 for my race sun morn.

RRR - Nice run! and oh yes, I have been eyeballing the forecast for the past few days, and all I can say is that the flyers are a-comin’! Enjoy, my friend...

Coyote Montane wrote:

... And hi to Allen - taking a breather from the geezer thread.

Hi, CM. I continue to post my training on both threads. There are a bunch of guys here chasing goals similar to mine, so lots of great information and inspiration. But on the 50+ thread, of course, there is more discussion and comprehension of the "special challenges" most of us geezers face! You seem to be immune, though ... I'm convinced it's those years of Nordic skiing.

I'm considering putting the Subaru 4-Mile Chase on my 2019 schedule. You remember that one from your Upstate NY days. Unfortunately, I will still be 59 ...

Pappy: Thanks for the vote of confidence and for welcome me to the thread. I am aiming for sub-2:45 specifically to get my Tokyo and Berlin qualifying time.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Last 2 weeks were basically my peak weeks of my NYC Marathon training cycle (the 23 mile long run was at the end of a 110 mile week) with one more peak week to go. The Wednesday workout is a part of cardio boot camp class I take that involves HIIT training on the treadmill, Rower, and weights. For the Treadmill HIIT, I am running intervals anywhere between 10.2-12 mph with varying inclines with recoveries at 8.6 mph (after 12 mph intervals). My 2x5000 was on the treadmill with 1 mile Recovery @ 6:57 pace between the 2 intervals. NYC is definitely tough so I need to run a smartly paced race to have a chance.

Thanks.. yup.. I just took it straight off my Strava training log. I just hope to get sub-2:45.. if I could finish a few minutes faster I would be really happy but I know NYC is a tough marathon so I need to temper my hopes. This was definitely a peak training week. I could not do this every week for sure. A friend told me I needed to run a 1:17:30 half to have a chance at sub-2:45 at NYC so that was my goal for the race.

Thanks for the vote of confidence and the encouragement. My plan is to use an even effort, conservative start pacing strategy (with a pace band) to run NYC. Would this be a wise strategy?

Thanks for the advice.. I definitely believe in starting out conservatively and trying to get close to an even split or slight negative split if possible. I know NYC is a difficult course so don’t want to be too aggressive with time goals.. I want sub-2:45 for Tokyo and Berlin qualifying. I just want to make sure I am setting a realistic goal. I might go for low to sub-2:40 at an easier course like Berlin or London.

Welcome Bruin. I’d say you’re lookin pretty dang good!

Bruin1996 wrote:

Thanks.. yup.. I just took it straight off my Strava training log. I just hope to get sub-2:45.. if I could finish a few minutes faster I would be really happy but I know NYC is a tough marathon so I need to temper my hopes. This was definitely a peak training week. I could not do this every week for sure. A friend told me I needed to run a 1:17:30 half to have a chance at sub-2:45 at NYC so that was my goal for the race.

If you can run a 10 mile tempo at 5:45 pace 48 hours after that brisk long run, you are in at least 1:13 half shape, probably faster.

I mean the 2x5k workout has to indicate that you’re in at least 15:4x shape (especially in the context of all the other faster days) unless there is some kind of issue with the treadmill.

Andy Dufresne wrote:

I want to respond to Smoove's heart rate talk because I had a wrist HRM in Chicago on Sunday. I also happen to have a second data point (NYC 2017) where I ran a controlled hard negative split effort. It wasn't a PR, but I closed faster in that race. The difference in average HR and peak HR is pretty interesting to look at and may inform my plans for the next marathon. However, it's now 2:18 and I need to get back to work!

I found this to be interesting as well. Most of his easy runs are being done close to marathon effort because of the conditions in Florida. If that's the case, then he isn't really adjusting his paces/effort to account for the heat. Don't get me wrong, I like marathon effort and the high-end aerobic approach in general but I feel we've been sold on a different version of training by him. Medium efforts are contrary to the true spirit of Daniels. I would argue that if anyone on here personifies JD training it would be AJ.

RRR - That cooler weather can't hit soon enough. With that being said, the overnight low headed into Saturday morning's LR is forecast to be 46 °F. I am almost giddy at the thought of being able to run in something that cool.

My original plan is 20mi easy, but since I am not doing any workouts this week with all my runs kept fairly easy and just getting the the weekly volume up I may want to do some form of LR workout to capitalize on the cool weather and close a week of all easy running with some quality.

Here are some of the options I am thinking about.

a) Stick with the plan and do the 20E.

b) Do some form of TLT like 3E+3T+9E+3T+2E or 3E+2x2T+9E+2T+2E

c) Do a 10E + 10M

d) Play it by ear and throw in some mile splits at M or T efforts when I feel like it.

e) Something else that I have not thought of.

I'm leaning toward the TLT. Next week's Q runs have a fair amount of M paced work with the scheduled LR is supposed to be 2E+14M+1E.