Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

I was definitely in a much better condition afterward this time than the very low mileage thrashing I went through 2 years ago. But I was also peeing iced tea by the end of that disaster (similar to your 4 hour experience). However, I'll leave with this quote from the recent Yuki article in the NYT:

“I can’t imagine going to work the next day,” said Meb Keflezighi of the United States, who won the 2014 Boston Marathon, the 2009 New York City Marathon and a silver medal at the 2004 Athens Olympics. “I can’t walk normal for four or five days. I’m walking downstairs backward. I feel like I’m 80 years old. And he’s going to work and going for a run.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/04/sports/yuki-kawauchi-marathon.html

RRR - My bike commuting would take away from my ability to keep up the running volume due both time and fatigue. The fatigue might be because I am older or more probably because I put a pretty good effort in when commuting. Sometimes there's a sprint to catch a green light or a harder effort to drop a guy who starts drafting me after I pass him or just working harder when mixed in with traffic. My commuter bike is fitted with a rack a panniers(saddle bags) loaded with change in clothes, laptop, and other junk which is real drag at times. If I were to be able to keep up my run training and add in some biking, that would be fine and might help with the overall conditioning. Like Allen mentioned earlier, run to be a better runner and bike to be a better biker. Cycling works the muscle groups differently and has a different range of motion. Especially when it comes to the hips. Think hip extension or your back kick. You don't see that sort of range when on the bike.

pewow wrote:

angryjohnny wrote:

Pewow - Thanks man. That’s 2 marathon PR’s in row (Boston and Chicago 2018). I’ve also Pr’d this year in the half (Houston), a local 10k, and I matched by 5k PR this summer on the track. Been a good year so far. Maybe I should close it out with a fast mile and a better 5k time.

AJ slo got this comment last year and now it's your turn. Sounds like you've got a nasty case of best shape of your life syndrome.

That’s pretty good company. I like it. Thanks pewow.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

I was definitely in a much better condition afterward this time than the very low mileage thrashing I went through 2 years ago. But I was also peeing iced tea by the end of that disaster (similar to your 4 hour experience). However, I'll leave with this quote from the recent Yuki article in the NYT:

“I can’t imagine going to work the next day,” said Meb Keflezighi of the United States, who won the 2014 Boston Marathon, the 2009 New York City Marathon and a silver medal at the 2004 Athens Olympics. “I can’t walk normal for four or five days. I’m walking downstairs backward. I feel like I’m 80 years old. And he’s going to work and going for a run.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/04/sports/yuki-kawauchi-marathon.html

This guy... I look up to Kipchoge, but this Japanese guy is telling me that running hard and working is possible! Btw how does he commute to work and doesn't get there all sweaty? It takes me 1 mile to start sweating like hell...

On another news, a big storm is coming up to Portugal. Hitting tonight and tomorrow morning/afternoon. They were talking about changing the course for Lisbon's Marathon, which is tomorrow, but it seems that the tailwind for 33kms will lead to multiple PRs... I have a 6 mile tempo, but I will wait until evening to do it...

Hello everyone, I love following this thread. Just wanted to ask something.

So I am 42 yo male, run about 50mpw over 6 days per week during marathon training using Daniels, and I am plateauing at about a 310 marathon. Work and family prohibits me from doing longer singles. But, I might be able to add a second run on 2 or 3 days each week, because sometimes my schedule clears in the late afternoon. The second run would be 4 or 5 miles. It would give me 10 to 12 total miles for that day.

Is that second run helpful because it adds volume, or is that time better used for rest? Thank you so much.

Oh I would def do the double those days. If you run it easy I think you will feel even better the next day. Those easy evening doubles to me are some of the most important runs of the week.

Hey Random,

The conventional wisdom is to start doubling after 70 mpw, but I agree with RRR here. I run 7 days per week in singles and consistently hit about 60 mpw. Maybe because I'm so slow, I don't feel like I'm ever going to hit 70mpw in singles, given my work/family schedule. I'm considering adding a double or two per week in my next marathon cycle.

Not sure it's "right," but it feels like it might be a good idea.

I agree. It's probably not the optimal way to allocate your miles, but it seems it is the optimal way for you given your life demands.

The only caution I would add is that you'll need to pay attention to your body. If your workouts are being impacted in a material way, or you start to feel stretched too thin, drop some of the doubles.

But as a general matter, you'll probably find that you feel great on the second run of the day and doubling is generally less stressful on your body than long singles.

Now when you start throwing in some doubles.. the first mile of second runs you will think .. wow maybe this isn’t a great idea I feel tired/stiff/etc. but just keep going! I still feel like that a lot but always feel fantastic in the middle to end and always much better the next day.

My philosophy since I started in Jan 2016 was just .. volume any way I could get it.. seems to have worked out okay and the main thing is. It’s fun!

Since my mid-40s I consistently break the "70 mile week" rule of thumb. And I'll add in doubles at 60 miles or so. Used to be due to schedule more than anything, but after turning 50 or so I found that it's sometimes easier to break down a 10-12 mile day into two. I don't sacrifice on long runs, which I do weekly, and also try to incorporate a mid-week long run of 90 minutes or more when in a marathon cycle. And no matter what still get in a couple 8-10/11 mile runs in any given week.

I am in favor of doubles here as well. I think that in the long run, the benefits should far outweigh any negatives, just be careful as Smoove pointed out that the extra mileage isn’t affecting your workouts or your ability to recover.

I would take it even a step further since this sounds like a long term change for you. I would initially shorten the first run of the day that you were going to add doubles, so that your given mileage for that day to start out with is similar to what you are running now. For example, split a single 8 miles into a 4/4 double. After a week or two of that, when you allow your body to adapt to your new running frequency, start upping the mileage on one of the two runs, so that you are doing a 5/4, then a 6/4, etc. This will safely get you to where you want to go. Set your frequency first, then add the volume.

I love 6/4 -4/4-5/5 type splits..Those are def RRR Approved .. you gonna see a LOAD of those in the week I post tomorrow!

another week slips by- I’m so far behind with the comments.

I’ve decided to hop in a half tomorrow. NYRR Staten Island Half. Honest course with some hills, but conditions will be pretty ideal. 1:13 or slower would be devastation. 1:12 would be just ok. 1:11 a good showing. Sub 1:11 would really be nice, but I’d need to run out of my mind. On a fast course and tapered I think I could take a shot at it. Tomorrow...we’ll have to see what develops. The half has always been by far my best distance though, so we’ll see.

Obviously some great hammering done by the crew in Chicago. I enjoyed the recaps. Heart rate for me is not reliable on race day, at least in the early stages. I’m just way more amped up than in training.

Stone- very sorry to hear about your mentor

BDubs and Sub6- damn, that sucks about the injury situation. been there. heal up gentlemen.

AJ- some great post race philsophizing and insights. I must say that I think I disagree with you regarding weight. I think six pounds is a big difference. I don’t weigh myself or have all the data points like Smoove, but I can tell that when I’ve run my best I’ve been at my lightest weight.

RunnerSam- that would be great to work with your friend in Philadelphia.

Coach jeff- belated congrats on the new 5k PR

Doubles- yes. For me mostly to help metabolism and keep weight off I think and easy recovery.

Just blasted the best training run of my life...20.14 at 6:21.8 overall...hilliest route...finishing 6:14, 6:03, 6:00, 6:10, 5:58, 5:54, 5:49, 0:48...was 6:20 or under in the last 14 miles. In that stretch, there was just the one 6:20 split. All of the rest were faster. Clouds and some sun, 50-52 degrees, and breezy...

Thanks all. Yes, I'd certainly prefer to do 65 mpw from long singles, but am now maxing out at 50 mpw doing singles, because I've got to get to work at really early hours a few days a week and have to cut those runs shorter than I'd like. As a result my marathon time has maxed out. I'll try all your advice and add a pm run in the afternoon when time allows, while staying on top of avoiding injury.

Sun - 6 easy

Mon - 10-12 mile workout

Tue - 5 easy am , 5 easy pm

Wed - 7 easy

Thu - 5 easy am, 5 easy pm new

Fri - 16-20 long run

Sat - rest, but maybe eventually 5 easy

Thank you.

RunnerSam wrote:

I was hoping statfanatic would put up his week so we could hear (read) the 5k details but I will give some selective facts from it. Poor stat went out in a 4:40 in a local 5k and got 3rd place. It was won in a 16:29 last year (2nd was 17:18). For reference the guy who got 1st last year ran a 15:57 for 5th this year.

-RunnerSam

Well since I got ratted out...

Yeah, I hopped in a low key 5k with a few buddies planning on just getting a decent effort in. Then somebody offered a cash incentive for sub-15 so another guy and I decided to go for it. I had our first 2 mile splits at 4:45 and 4:47 with a pretty decent climb in the 2nd mile. I tanked after that. Not sure what happened but right after 2 I went backwards and just had nothing to give. My friend pulled away and ended up going 14:50 while I jogged the last mile in for something in the 15:25-30 range. Don't know if I was a bit under the weather or not but my last month of training hasn't really been consistent and you can only get away with that for so long. Putting some good boring volume in right now though which should pay off in a few months.

AJ, do you have a week by week writeup of your block heading into Chicago? Would love to look at the progression in aggregate.

As a steeler fan I love the name Bubby

Blast from the past

No problem. Here’s my plan for Chicago:

https://imgur.com/gallery/Qk6uLVg

As I mentioned before, I missed more workouts this cycle than ever before. Modifications that I can remember include:

(1) I skipped the first week.

(2) I did 10x800 instead of 10x1000 because my buddies were doing 800s

(3) I skipped deek’s quarters. I was exhausted that week. Mileage build + 9 day cycle caught up to me.

(4) I did 100 during one of the 90 weeks and only got 66 during the first taper week (should have been 80)

(5) I bailed on 13-15M after 8.25 miles. Stressed at work and conditions sucked.

(6) I skipped the 3x3T due to work. Bummer because I always look forward to that once.