Road Racing and Training Thread (Chicago Edition) - Week Ending 10/7/18

Image of my heart rate data is below. The line across is my average heart rate -153. I highlighted one of two brief spikes - both were 170. My normal heart rate on cruise intervals was between 168-172. Max heart rate during the cycle was about 182, I think I only hit once or twice. And most racist, I was closer to 178. At the end of that half marathon and marathon effort a couple of weeks ago, I ended up close to 180 for the last part of that race after starting out the first half in the low 150s.

As you can see, my heart rate is actually lower in the second half of my marathon on the average done in the first half. Part of this is due to the fact that I slow down the last 7k because my calves could not withstand any more, But I am fairly confident that had I been able to maintain the pace, my heart rate would not have escalated much beyond where it was.

https://imgur.com/a/mo6oP9g

Max in my 5k in August was 195. Max in the marathon was 190. You're aerobically sandbagging these marathons at the end Smoove. Get those calves worked out already.

Sweat/Moisture will make wrist based HR register low from what I have read online.

This heart rate talk is really interesting.

I use a wrist-based HRM and never look at heart rate data during races.

From experience, my best marathons have come when my HR has held between 160-164 in the first 20 miles of a marathon.

I use two pieces of heart rate data from training to decide on my marathon day race pace.

2 weeks before the race, whatever pace I can hold for a mile (in a 6 mile marathon pace run) at HR of 162 becomes my marathon goal pace. The other data point that I use is my pace at 150HR subtracted by 40 secs/mile - so, if at HR=150, my pace is 8 min/mile, then I am in shape for a 7:20 min/mile marathon. Not scientific at all, but I have used these data points pretty successfully.

By the way, I can't figure out a way to post images, so I will spare you the heart rate data from my best marathon in terms of steady splits. The differential between the average mile pace and the slowest mile pace was only 5 secs/mile in that race.

runrincerepeat wrote:

https://imgur.com/upload

Thanks RRR. Didn't think of that.

Image here -

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

You're aerobically sandbagging these marathons at the end Smoove. Get those calves worked out already.

While I did not have the heart rate data to support this before this race, this is why I knew I didn't need to be in perfect shape aerobically to run a PR. The aerobic part of it has never really been the issue. It is solely my damn pesky and barely even their calves.

Smoove wrote:

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

You're aerobically sandbagging these marathons at the end Smoove. Get those calves worked out already.

While I did not have the heart rate data to support this before this race, this is why I knew I didn't need to be in perfect shape aerobically to run a PR. The aerobic part of it has never really been the issue. It is solely my damn pesky and barely even their calves.

When it comes to this contest (worlds smallest calves) RRR wins hands down.. only thing I can beat Smoove at .. well besides Corn Hole.

Smoove wrote:

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

You're aerobically sandbagging these marathons at the end Smoove. Get those calves worked out already.

While I did not have the heart rate data to support this before this race, this is why I knew I didn't need to be in perfect shape aerobically to run a PR. The aerobic part of it has never really been the issue. It is solely my damn pesky and barely even their calves.

Although really, my heart rate probably would have dropped in the second half of the race too if I had also taken several breaks to catch my breath.

Allen1959 wrote:

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

This year I have...

PR = VDOT

2:57:01 = 2:57:03

1:24:35 = 1:24:50

18:17 = 18:29

With the close correlation you and others have posted, it's quite evident I will need to be hitting VDot equivalents at shorter distances to have a legitimate shot at sub-3.

That's daunting, given my race performances this year, or even going back to 2017. The "required" 10K pace is faster than what I have run for 5K this year! My optimism is fading ...

Per-mile pace

Distance/2017/2018/Vdot goal

HM - 6:46 - xxxx - 6:28

15K - 6:26 - 6:43 - 6:19

10K - xxxx - 6:28 - 6:10

5K --- 6:06 - 6:11 - 5:57

1M -- xxxx - 5:38 - 5:24

Don't sweat it, Allen. The aerobic moderate-to-high end is where it is at, especially for us older guys. I see it virtually everyday here in the store...so many aerobically underdeveloped runners. For example, can run 18:45 in a 5k but cannot break 3:20 in a marthon (Daniels says 2:59:xx for this), and this is after more than one attempt. Numerous other examples, but this one came to mind first.

Keep at it, my friend, and let your runs make you smile.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

Also at the risk of starting up multiple conversations at once...those of you that PR'd at shorter distances right after a marathon. What did your recovery, turnaround, and return to race situation look like? Feeling motivated and only a little bit sore today but I also know I need to respect the recovery process. Also winter is coming, so I don't have unlimited time to find races. I remember at least GoFaMiAnHo mentioning recently he did this?

Hey Gordon,

Congratulations again on the race, and really on the whole training cycle. Smart and tough all the way through. I'm going to try to answer your question as best I can, though to be honest this was about fifteen years ago and I've forgotten a lot of the details. And just as a heads up: just because I did this doesn't mean I think it's necessarily a good idea. In fact, a lot of the things I did back then were frankly kind of stupid (details below).

That being said, the sequence started with a marathon either at the end of September (Fox Cities in WI) or early in October (Chicago). I then took a few days completely off before starting up again with just easy jogging. I was helping out with a high school team at the time, so I'm guessing that by the next week I was at least running to the school and back for practice and probably doing the easy runs with them. By the next week it's possible that I might have been doing some of their lighter workouts with them as well.

After the high school guys would have had their state meet at the end of October, I would have shifted back into doing more of my own training, but with considerably lower volume than I was doing for the marathon (maybe in the 40s or 50s as opposed to the 70s or 80s, with no real long runs and lower volume workouts, maybe 3-4 miles of repeats as opposed to 6-8, and probably a few progression runs. Coming off that kind of work, I remember running a 5k Turkey Trot cross-country that was slightly faster than my college PR on the track (on a pretty legit course, I think) and a 10k Jingle Bells run in early December that was significantly faster than my college PR on the track (by like 2:00, and again, a pretty legit course). The 10k is still my PR. From what I can remember, I decided to do it on the morning of.

So, looking at the timeline, that would be something like:

One week strictly recovery (maybe 15 miles)

One week just easy running (maybe 30 miles)

A couple of more weeks of easy running with a few light workouts (maybe 40 miles/wk)

A month of progressively returning to workouts but still with lower volume (weekly and workout) and no real long runs

Race

A couple of things I should note:

My marathon buildup was only like ten weeks with a two week taper, and the only thing that I really did differently was do somewhat higher volume, somewhat longer long runs, and somewhat longer workouts. And tell myself that I was training for a marathon.

Because of coaching, I was doing cross-country workouts on a regular basis up until the last week before the marathon. I don't know whether this was good for my marathon training, but it may have helped me transition to shorter races following the marathon.

I had forgotten this, actually, but a couple of these post-marathon racing adventures did end up with me getting injured in a race (had to take about a week off after my 10k PR, had to take about a month off another time after running a snowy race with really bad footing).

So, it's possible that this was Really A Bad Idea, even if I did get a few PRs out of it, and it would definitely have been a really bad idea if I had been planning to run a marathon in the spring (which I wasn't).

Hope this is helpful, even if it's ultimately a cautionary tale!

Smoove wrote:

You can achieve the bulk of most desired adaptation by way of 4 weeks of work at a particular pace, with 6 weeks of work at that pace being preferable. At some point, when you stop doing work, detraining occurs.

It's worth noting that as easy as it is to "detrain" it is just as easy to get it back, especially the faster stuff. Aerobic strength takes much longer to develop. That's why I favor placing the speed work at the end of the cycle. At the end of the cycle you want to be as race-specific and as sharp as possible.

too hot wrote:

Smoove wrote:

You can achieve the bulk of most desired adaptation by way of 4 weeks of work at a particular pace, with 6 weeks of work at that pace being preferable. At some point, when you stop doing work, detraining occurs.

It's worth noting that as easy as it is to "detrain" it is just as easy to get it back, especially the faster stuff. Aerobic strength takes much longer to develop. That's why I favor placing the speed work at the end of the cycle. At the end of the cycle you want to be as race-specific and as sharp as possible.

Agreed...and I am even considering doing some shorter/speedier stuff here in the last 4+ weeks, depending upon how my body is feeling (some sore spots right now).

Thanks GoFaMiAnHo. Sounds like my original, pre-marathon thoughts of down time and some moderate work towards a Thanksgiving weekend-ish race aren't totally crazy, but my very recent itch to hammer something ASAP is best left ignored. This is a reminder I might need to keep reminding.

I did a 5k three weeks after the last marathon and went into it with one tweaked leg and came out of it more tweaked.

I also have no spring marathon plans and once winter hits will probably transition into a short break and then just mileage, so perhaps a turkey run and a jingle run and then winter mileage is the way to go.

The inverse of this is also true. I know people who have run really solid Marathon times but have not run a fast 5k/10k.

Someone like AJ who trains all the systems has the PRs in line.. I think any school of coaching can work as long as it includes all to most of the paces. What I like about the Pappy Protocol..we hit a lot of different paces in a week to two weeks time in a variety of ways.

too hot wrote:

That's why I favor placing the speed work at the end of the cycle. At the end of the cycle you want to be as race-specific and as sharp as possible.

I get that for shorter distances, but this is the reason I want to do it early in the cycle for marathon training. Once it's done, you can spend the final weeks on race specific work, and like Smoove says, speed maintenance is fairly simple.

outsiderunner wrote:

I am even considering doing some shorter/speedier stuff here in the last 4+ weeks, depending upon how my body is feeling (some sore spots right now).

My unsolicited advice is for you to avoid this. As a guy dealing with Achilles issues, I don't see enough upside for you here to offset the potential downside. Plus, with your approach to closing out runs hard, you are already getting a fair amount of exposure to paces considerably faster than marathon pace. If you were feeling totally healthy, and if you had regularly done harder paced work in training in the past, it might be worth it, but it probably isn't worth the risk given your balky Achilles, your body's lack of familiarity with this approach, and the fact that you get in faster than marathon pace work on several runs a week.

In fact, one of the reasons I prefer the faster work early on is that it gives me time to recover from any niggles that may result from going at 5k pace.

RRR - I am sure the opposite case exists, but, in my experience, it is nowhere near as prevalent as the aerocially underdeveloped runner. I mean, it is not even close. In fact, I cannot remember the last time I talked to someone, here or elsewhere, that had clearly better performances at the longer distances than at the shorter ones.

Thanks VERY much, Smoove. I really appreciate this advice, especially from you specifically.