AJ - Are you okay there in AL? Michael looks pretty bad.
AJ - Are you okay there in AL? Michael looks pretty bad.
Gordon Tremeshko wrote:
Smoove wrote:
it does mean that the calf issues should mostly be non-issues for my foreseeable racing future.
(unless the foot muscle is connected to the calf muscle)
Also I feel like you said you were done with marathons after Boston 2017...and then trained for Boston 2018 and ran Chicago 2018. You'll be back.
From Smooves favorite movie!
https://imgur.com/a/LkGfwjNI feel compelled to note that RRR is being sarcastic and that in my mind, neither the third installment of The Godfater nor the third edition of Daniels' Running Formula ever happened.
All good here. We’re a long way inland. Looks like the panhandle of Florida got whacked hard. My brother lives down there. No word yet on whether his house is still standing. They were a bit west of the eye so they should be okay. Fingers crossed.
I have the third edition. Smoove or someone else. Can you explain Daniels VO2 block for the marathon? Is it for gaining speed and efficiency or is more to work the heart and oxygen transport?
He doesn't discuss it as much as I'd like, but I've always thought it served two purposes for me:
First, two improve your overall fitness by way of increasing vo2max (heart and lungs as you put it), and, probably more importantly for me, to make tempo pace feel more manageable (speed and efficiency).
So both!
Pretty much what Smoove says. All Daniels says in the book is that it's to prepare for the next phase of training.
jewbacca wrote:
Pretty much what Smoove says. All Daniels says in the book is that it's to prepare for the next phase of training.
+1. I think JB said it well earlier — the faster VO2 work drags MP down.
I think it’s somewhat analogous to weight lifting. If you want to train your body to bench press 135 lbs as many times as possible, you won’t maximize your potential just doing a lot of reps of 135 lbs or less. You also have to do some reps of heavier weights to increase your max. As your max increases 135 begins to feel easier and easier.
So the answer from the Daniels guys is
I dunno?!
41 here this morn .. where are my dam gloves!
Wow, 41...last day of heat to get through here...72 right now...
Smoove wrote:
by way of increasing vo2max (heart and lungs as you put it),
vo2 max doesn't actually increase in well-trained runners outside of weight loss
It may increase your efficiency at other paces but that is mostly psychological.
"tempo" paces are supposed to feel comfortably hard
The idea is to start at the bottom of the pyramid and ease into your training phases
too hot wrote:
The idea is to start at the bottom of the pyramid and ease into your training phases
Whose idea?
I think a more appropriate model is not one pyramid but two, stacked on top of each other with there points touching. Much like an hour glass.
The lower pyramid is speed. You start broadly at the bottom and bring it up, until you meet at the apex of goal race pace. The top (upside down) pyramid is endurance. You start broadly at the top and bring it down, until you meet at the apex of goal race pace.
This might be two different looking models of trying to describe the same process. Because I think both you and I agree that you need to start quality conservatively and ease into more demanding paces only after your body has handled introductory paces. Your barometer of course being mostly by effort, my barometer starting out mostly by effort and only in the specific/sharpening stages becoming more pace oriented.
Also like you, I don’t focus on any one set zone (VO2 max, threshold, marathon). I think it’s important to work on every “in-between” pace as well. Just start broadly on both ends, and funnel towards the common apex.
Few thoughts on V02 max
You can increase V02 max simply by putting in more miles, but only up to 70-75 miles a week.
Beyond that very fit athletes can continue to tweak their V02 max upwards with interval training at paces close to or at V02 max pace.
Training at V02 max helps both physiologically (oxygen transport, capillarization, RBC, and all that) and with running economy (efficiency at faster paces).
You don't want to over do the training, especially with the marathon so as indicated by some others here, either early in you training cycle (e.g. 12 weeks to 6 weeks out), or a limited phase later in the cycle (but without overdoing it).
As an (aging) masters runner I have found some diminishing returns with V02 max work, but still incorporate some reps at that effort, although most of my interval work is at a somewhat slower/more aerobic pace--i.e., I do progressions or sometimes just a shorter workout.
I agree with Coyote on this.
I would also note that there are always some definitional issues to consider. You can achieve the bulk of most desired adaptation by way of 4 weeks of work at a particular pace, with 6 weeks of work at that pace being preferable. At some point, when you stop doing work, detraining occurs.
Well, what does it mean to "stop doing work?" In the case of vo2max adaptations, it doesn't mean just stopping 5k paced intervals. While 5k paced intervals are (at least in the Daniels world view) the most efficient way to effectuate vo2max adaptation, they are not the only way. Tinman has shown that work at 10k pace can be effective in effectuating those adaptations as well. Threshold pace work is also effective. We can argue about the efficiency of each pace with respect to vo2max adaptations, but that is secondary to the bigger point - that adaptations resulting from a vo2max block can be maintained for an extended period by doing work at slower paces (CV pace, threshold pace).
Easy distance pace is probably the least effective way to maintain vo2max adaptations, and, at some point, detraining of vo2max will occur. So if you take an otherwise fairly well trained runner who is coming off of a break in training due to injury or due to just taking some down time between cycles, they will not be maxed out on their vo2max, and vo2max work will result in vo2max adaptations.
I would also agree that at different points in our careers, different workouts have different value. Compare my 4 vo2max workouts this marathon cycle to my 6 vo2max workouts in past cycles. Or compare my "6 weeks and then leave vo2max behind" approach from past cycles to the approach I use with my better runners - "6 week block followed by a vo2max maintenance workout every three weeks or so."
Agreed. It's basically the difference between linear and non-linear periodization and both models can be used quite effectively.
Coyote Montane wrote:
Few thoughts on V02 max
You can increase V02 max simply by putting in more miles, but only up to 70-75 miles a week.
Training at V02 max helps both physiologically (oxygen transport, capillarization, RBC, and all that) and with running economy (efficiency at faster paces).
You don't want to over do the training, especially with the marathon so as indicated by some others here, either early in you training cycle (e.g. 12 weeks to 6 weeks out), or a limited phase later in the cycle (but without overdoing it).
As an (aging) masters runner I have found some diminishing returns with V02 max work, but still incorporate some reps at that effort, although most of my interval work is at a somewhat slower/more aerobic pace--i.e., I do progressions or sometimes just a shorter workout.
The physiological component to training at faster paces is related to lactate tolerance (oxygen debt), not so much to V02 max which is pretty much genetic and rather fixed in well-trained athletes but I definitely agree that you can't overdo it
runrincerepeat wrote:
Totally agree... when I put my comeback plan in motion , was thinking HM and under for 6-7 years before a serious Marathon build. Get the base and speed and then stretch it out. It may be different for some runners who do not start running until say 40 or so but still think there is merit for doing 5k-10k-HM at least for a few years first.
Plus I figured it gives me another set of PRs to work out post 45 when I am all tapped out at the short stuff.
This is exactly why I don't go for a marathon (at least in the following two years...I would like to get one under my belt before I turn 25 ahah). I think I have so much juice to squeeze in the smaller distances, and I think my body isn't still ready for the Marathon mileage. But when I do it, I wanna go big. With all the respect the 26.2 (or 42.195) should have from me!
Gordon Tremeshko wrote:
This year I have...
PR = VDOT
2:57:01 = 2:57:03
1:24:35 = 1:24:50
18:17 = 18:29
With the close correlation you and others have posted, it's quite evident I will need to be hitting VDot equivalents at shorter distances to have a legitimate shot at sub-3.
That's daunting, given my race performances this year, or even going back to 2017. The "required" 10K pace is faster than what I have run for 5K this year! My optimism is fading ...
Per-mile pace
Distance/2017/2018/Vdot goal
HM - 6:46 - xxxx - 6:28
15K - 6:26 - 6:43 - 6:19
10K - xxxx - 6:28 - 6:10
5K --- 6:06 - 6:11 - 5:57
1M -- xxxx - 5:38 - 5:24
Response to Smoove's HR post and hopefully encouragement for Andy to share whatever insights he had from his HRM that he didn't have time for before. (Mine is also wrist data that I do not monitor during the race)
Grandma's marathon in 3:09: 175.5 average heart rate (orange)
Chicago marathon in 2:57: 174.5 average heart rate (blue)
One of last 10 mile tempos at 6:40 pace before Chicago: 159.7 average heart rate (red)
However, I got that 175 very different ways.
Grandma's marathon it looks like I slipped over 180bpm around mile 13 or 14 and then started progressively slowing down, seemingly with the "keeping heart rate around 175" as my invisible limiting factor.
Chicago marathon I wasn't over 180 consistently until around mile 24, but luckily I was done running soon after because I was starting to slow.
In training I didn't even go over 170. Some combination of race day hype and actually having some caffeine before my run in the early miles? (no caffeine before training runs) The assumed trend follows similar to Chicago in the end, just starts lower than I did in Chicago.
Anyway, all I can conclude is that my aerobic top end appears to be somewhere around 175 average, but I don't think I can use that to actually judge what my early race pace should be, or workout pace, or anything really. Interesting correlation but I can't think of a concrete way to use it until I have like...crazy volumes of data to look back on, since it's not really a true plateau?
Also I can reconfirm that that race in Chicago ended just in time.
all this HR talk makes me want to strap on my chest strap for a look see sometime. Maybe next week... The only data I have is after the 4th 400 of sixteen on Monday at the end of my 75sec standing rest my HR went under 100 BPM checking manually. Has to be a good sign. I think on E days it stays very low... RHR has been 42-44 lately in the mornings (although thats usually after I had stood up to go take a whiz and then lay back down for a few ticks)