How much of the Vaporfly 4% is hype?

Garmin guy I wouldn't do it out of principle. It is like literally doping. It is best to go au naturale. I'm sure if you wore Kipchoge's shoes from Berlin this year the shoes would literally run the 2:25 for you while you just sit back and take it easy.

75% of the 4% is hype...it should be the 1%.

Read that. The real takeaway is you can get nearly the same benefit from the zoom streak and save $150.

dpaull414 wrote:

[NYT]

Read that. The real takeaway is you can get nearly the same benefit from the zoom streak and save $150.

Terrific, this is really helpful. Maybe it is worth it to grab some Streaks - I've also worn them before and enjoyed them. I don't think Nike is making new ones anymore, are they?

butwhatif people are saying they raced in streaks on strava because they are ashamed they used vaporfly?

depending on which flavor of analysis you look at in that study, the number 2 through 10 shoes shuffle quite a bit with the occasional nb 860 popping up as a top marathon shoe. the only constant is the vaporfly is consistently #1. there's a lot of inherent noise in the data and the study design. it makes it hard to trust any of it except maybe that the vaporfly is better than any other shoe out there.

I think hype is definitely part of it, but there is pretty convincing evidence you could actually run faster in a pair. Maybe part of it's placebo. I don't know..Maybe the hype mostly influences the high price? I'm really torn about picking up a pair on October 4. You're faster than me, but I hope I could go under 2:40. I found this article on Runner's World really interesting and thought provoking:

https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a22487985/nike-vaporfly-4-percent-shoes-make-you-faster/

Particularly Jeff Dengate's quote:

“Yes, the Vaporfly is that fast. You can read all you want on studies that show a 4 percent improvement in economy—even our own testing at the Runner’s World Shoe Lab couldn’t raise any red flags with Nike’s claims—but you truly must get these shoes on your feet to appreciate how they perform,” he told me.

“In 30 years of running, I’ve never experienced anything like these,” Jeff said. “And that’s saying something, considering I’ve run in 672 different pairs of shoes since 2010.” He liked them so much, he bought two extra pairs.

Jeff then mentioned something he wrote in his training log after first trying the shoes. It made me realize there’s something else that’s been a mental block keeping me from wanting to train and race in the Vaporflys.

After the first race wearing the Vaporfly 4%, he remembered finishing far faster than his training would indicate. He recalled a huge smile on his face, turning to a buddy in the chute, and saying “these things are like cheating.”

For me, I'll probably try a pair of Adidas Adios instead. I have two kids and not a super high paying job, so if I'm honest, spending $250 on shoes is pretty foolish (for me). It's not like I'm anywhere near winning prize money. Maybe in 5 years I'll pick up a cheaper pair once the technology has trickled down. I've still got another 5-10 years of good running in me (I hope).

Yeah if you get them but also enjoy bustin' Strava Segment CRs then DON'T log them on the site. Otherwise people will just think you're a cheat even in the world of elite hobbyjogging.

They had an awesome demonstration at the Berlin Marathon Expo where you could try them out. You had to wait in line and they brought people in in about 30-person groups. Then they explained the shoe and had some crazy light-show / movie / demo for a few minutes that really got you pumped up. They must've poured a good amount of money into it. And then you had the opportunity to try the shoe out on the treadmills they had (woodways). There was a challenge to run 800m (men) / 400m (women) at Kipchoge's 2:00:25 pace.

Anyway, I tried the shoes out and was really blown away by how springy / bouncy / light they were. Before that, I thought they would help a little..but now I'm fully convinced. It's like hitting with an aluminum bat versus wood in baseball.

Personally, I don't feel fast enough to warrant getting them yet. I'm running times right around BQ-5. If I can get down to BQ-20 with "normal" shoes I'll consider it. You're talking 2:25? At that level I'd be investing in everything I could afford that's legal. A 4% improvement would practically bump you to an OTQ.

As to whether the 4% SHOULD be allowed...ehhhh, probably not. Or at least only if they could get the price down to a more mainstream level.

As I continue to thinking about this, it's hard not to compare this at least a little bit to cycling.

Admittedly, this is one reason why I dislike cycling. Because no matter how hard I train, my $1200 bike will never take me as fast as a $3000, $5000+ bike. It's not cheating in cycling to have a better bike, so why are we so concerned about Vaporflys? Split shorts are faster than running in jeans, so are those cheating?

To answer my own question about cycling, I think the draw to running is it's simplicity. The difference clothing makes (from shirt to shoes) is much less than the difference technology makes in cycling.

I don't know..Stuff to think about. Will be interesting to look back in 10 years time to see how this shakes out.

The Vaporfly is different in degree, but not in kind. All shoes return some percentage of the energy that you put into them, and more importantly, all shoes provide some degree of passive cushioning that would otherwise have to be provided through metabolically costly muscle contractions. There are faster and slower shoes. The Adios Boost was also shown to be faster than previous, non-boost shoes. Heck, when Geb was asked about it, he said that of course shoes help you, and that the last "pure" WR was Abebe Bikila's in Rome.

Ultimately, I think if we get regulation of shoes, it's going to be with regard to midsole thickness. Use all the tech you want within a confined space (since it's all essentially doing the same thing, just to greater or lesser degrees).

Even 1% would be over a minute difference at a WR pace. One of things I enjoy about running is that, compared to baseball, where it's impossible to compare Babe Ruth to current baseball players, the differences in performances (absent PEDs) can only result from ability and training. Now it seems that is no longer the case.

Based on ratios of runners' 10K and marathon PRs, I had calculated that the fastest possible marathon should be around 2:02:30, but Kipchoge obliterated that time. It seems that even 2:00, which I thought was a joke to even discuss, now seems possible.

I guess if we want to compare Kichoge's time to previous records, we will have to add some type of adjustment, which is almost as bad as the effects from PEDs.

First time I wore them in a workout, I ran quite quickly. I ran faster than I anticipated. But then I boxed them up to only use in races. The next workout, I ran in Brooks flats and ran even faster than the workout in the Vaporfly's. So I went from thinking it was the shoes, to thinking maybe not. Then I raced in the shoes and didn't run fast; in fact, I ran substantially slower than my training would indicate.

At that point, I figured it was all hype. But in all races since that first one I've run on the very fast end of what my training would suggest. So again, now I'm on the "these are the real deal" train. But I also sometimes think I would've run just as fast in other racing flats.

I guess my point is I'm not certain they help me, but they might. And if they might be helping, then I may as well continue to use them, just in case.

I did run the marathon faster when transitioning from Hoka bondi 4 to Nike Zoom Fly. The Zoom Fly is the somewhat cheaper and more durable version of the Vaporfly 4%, but uses the same principle.

I have a pair of Vaporfly 4% , but I can`t wear my orthotic insoles in it, so I use it only for shorter distances. I do feel that they help for a fast 5 K (recent 5k PB 18:20 @age 44).

Imho, it’s not all hype. Although I like to believe that my recent marathon and 5K improvements are more related to increasing experience and better training than to my shoes.

How much of the Vaporfly 4% is hype?

no according to rek its just slightly less than 1%, according to JonO if it was that much of a % your feet would start on fire, and according to renato they only work on out of shape noobs who are not in shape, his runners actually get slower using them...kipchoge isnt one of his runners so he cant say anything about the shoes

dpaull414 wrote:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html

Read that. The real takeaway is you can get nearly the same benefit from the zoom streak and save $150.

well looking at the pics, guy on the left is much faster at the mile and up, the guy on the right? are you serious? thats a crossfit, spartan, tough mudder type trying to do a 100m stride in them for a f*cking photo shoot...PATHETIC

those calfs are 100% manufactured from water retention, yup thats right high protien shake diet and Dinoball, let me guess the guy was a hs football player, wasnt good enough for college ball so he ended up doing coed softball and intramural rugby in college with his metrosexual frat buddies, upon graduation he got into the whole crossfit/insta model crowd....he does lame photo shoots mostly LEGS only for a small paycheck...lolz

I'm convinced the benefit is almost entirely hype. Some marginal mechanical benefit may exist, but that's likely rather minor relative to other great shoes. However, the hype is real and creates a real placebo effect. And a placebo benefit is a true and demonstrable benefit which can be measured and confirmed. Therefore, it's both almost entirely hype and entirely a real benefit. That is, until enough people start realizing there's no actual mechanical benefit and the hype dies off and the placebo effect declines, further reducing hype, then further reducing placebo effect, and so on and so forth. Placebos are fascinating.

So here's what someone needs to do:

Create a pair of shoes that look identical to Vaporfly 4%, but aren't. Tell them they are the real deal and that they should might see an improvement in running economy / times and see what the result is. That's the only way to test whether the placebo effect is real.

Maybe you could do this with the Vaporfly Street, but I doubt they feel even close to the real thing.