Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

Renato Canova wrote:

Kipyegon Bett is an idiot. He escaped 3 times from an OOC test, asked his management to defend him with personal excuses, and few days later ADAK found EPO in a new OOC test.

Yes, normally people have a reason to "inadvertently miss" an OOC test. This is fun!

Who cares about that - it's old news and you've already explain it many times before.

I'm curious about Bett - who's his coach? Do you think his coach had anything to do with his doping? If not, would Bett seek out doping through a referral to a doping doctor or would he obtain the EPO from a pharmacy and self-administer it without his coach or anyone else knowing? It's devastating to see a promising youngster who won bronze at last year's WCs ruin his potential stardom with doping.

And what's going on with the transplanted Kenyans to Bahrain getting pop for doping. Is the doping being administered in Bahrain or do you think these Kenyans are getting their gear in Kenya (assuming some of them train in Kenya).

There seems to be a disturbing pattern with imported athletes to Bahrain getting bagged for doping. It all started with Rocket Fuel Ramzi running under the flag of Bahrain at Beijing embarrassing the nation when he was later popped for CERA (though I understand he trained a lot with his buds in Morroco). Over the years now, there's been several Morrocans & Kenyans running for Bahrain getting popped for dope or an ABP sanction. Do these dopers think that they were going to get some kind of protection from Bahrain by relocating there, or is it just a case where they go to Bahrain for the money, training facilities, scenery, entertainment, etc? ?

Again a lot of suppositions only, totally wrong, how normal you write.

1) I give you the exact dates of my coaching with Federations :

1969-1970 : Responsible for Juniores of 400m / 800m / 4x400m in Italian Federation (FIDAL)

1971-1972 : Assistant coach of the Seniores sector (400/800/400hs/4X400) Fidal under the Head Coach of the sector, Salvatore Morale (himself WR holder of 400 hs in 1962).

1973-1974 : Assistant coach of prof. Carlo Vittori in the sector SPRINT-HURDLES (100-200-400-110 HS-400HS - 4x100 - 4x400) Men and Women

1975-1984 : Head Coach of Multiple Events

1985-1986 : Head Coach of Marathon (Women)

1987-1988 : Head Coach of Marathon (Men and Women) together with Luciano Gigliotti

1989-1996 : Head Coach of Middle and Long distances (800-Marathon) together with Luciano Gigliotti

1997-1999 : Responsible of Methodological Research and Experimentation

2000-2002 : Technical Scientifc Director

On 31 December 2002 I resigned, because FIDAL became too much "political", and members of the FIDAL Council, without any specific experience, wanted to decide a new "line", giving importance to a lot of useless factors, and at the same time trying to reduce the importance of the technical sector.

This meaned a reduction in the training camp for the best athletes, reduction in the physiotherapic support for the best, reduction of the investment for recruiting new strong athletes. In other words, a step from a "professional" organization to an "amateur" approach, that I could not accept.

2004-2009 : Head coach of Endurance in Qatar. I resigned at the end of 2009 after fighting with the Federation because of the treatment they had with the Kenyans who changed cityzenship.

2010 : The Head Coach of Qatar at the moment, Peter Thompson, came to me in Iten asking to go back. I went back in May after a long negotiation regarding the athletes, that I wanted in the Team till London Olympics, and after having precise assurances about that issue. After winning 7 medals in the Asian Games in Guangzhou, the Kenyan-Qatari were again put out of the National Team (the official excuse was they refused to learn Arabic language...), and I resigned again, explaining that I never could collaborate again in the future with a "Federation of Cheaters".

2013-2015 : After doing a course as IAAF Lecturer with the coaches of Asian Countries in the Beijing University (3 weeks in November 2012), Chinese Federation asked me to become their coach for Endurance. I accepted, with the motivation to change their system (not technical, but like organization). After two years, I understood it was not possible, because the central Federation wanted, but the real power was in the hands of the Provinces, that considered every competition at international level as a "disturb" for their only goal : the National Games every 4 years.

So, in spite to have a contract till the end of 2016, I resigned after Beijing WCh, leaving the Federation a long report of changes in their organization, that till now didn't happen.

2) I never took merit for some athletes I never coached, so your continue attribution to me of something I never said is, frankly, a little bit boring.

3) I know very well Joe Vigil : he's a very good friend of mine. We had together several clinics and seminars, some organized by USATF, some other around the world. I respect him a lot as coach, and as person, because I know how much passion he puts not only in training the athletes, but also in advising about their life. About Damin Martin, sorry, but I never met him.

4) I never took some athlete from HS able running 8'50" in 3000m, bringing him to run 13'30" in 5000m. However, I had, for example, one athlete with PB of 4'19" in 1500m while Junior, that with me ran 13'56" in 5000m, 28'54" in 10000m (when 28), 61'48" in HM (when 30) and 2:11'48" in Marathon (when 31). I had another running 3'54" when junior, who ran 5000m in 13'23"85 and Marathon in 2:11'51" when 27, 10000m in 28'01"55 when 28 and HM in 61'07" when 30.

I had women, starting with me when juniores, like Maura Viceconte (10'16" in 3000m when 19) who became the NR holder of Marathon in 2000 with 2;23;47, and of 10000m in 31'05"53 (still NR), after winning bronze medal in European Championships 1998. I had athletes, starting with me when 18, who were able to better the NR of 10000m with 32'04" in 1986 when 23, to win bronze medal in World Championships 15 km 1987 , to arrive 10th in WCCCh 1988, to arrive in the final in Marathon Olympics (8th in Seoul), and, after a very bad accident, to go back athletics winning silver medal in European 1994 in Marathon. I had also athletes able to win bronze medal in WCh in Marathon 1995, like Ornella Ferrara, who started running marathon with me in 1993, ran her PB when 36 in 2004, and ran till 2012 when was 44.

5) About my activity as athlete, I have PB in ALL the athletic events. Maybe not very big PB, but my goal was to learn PERSONALLY about every event (it's not a case that I became in Italy the responsible for multiple events), the feeling we need to have, the mentality for different types of competition. Some my PB ? For example, 5966 points in decathlon, or 1.93 in HJ, or... 9.99 in shot put (!), or 2:53:22 in the only marathon in my life without preparation in 1965, or 54"8 in 400 hs, or 50"8 in 400m, or 32'03" in 10000m the day after winning a 400 hs in 55"6.....

I did all the opposite a strong athlete has to do : for me, all the events were a joy, and I wanted to improve the feeling (mental and technical) with every event, already looking at which was my final goal : TO BE A COACH.

6) Finally, don't continue to ask me some thought about other coaches, or managements, or athletes.

I never speak about something I don't know, like instead the most part of posters do, and I don't want to share my thought about somebody, if I have some suspicion, BUT NOT PROVES.

On the contrary, I don't have any problem to puclicly appreciate coaches or athletes of whom I well know ethic and behavior, and that's the reason because I put in the same category Patrick Sang, Brother Colm O'Connel and myself, while I prefer not to speak about situations I don't know very well.

no i only post under one handle and one handle only, "m!indweak"

I can't tell you what I don't know. What I know, is that Bahrein had a training camp, lasting all the year, in Kapsabet, with the most part of the Bahreini athletes. The head coach was Shaddad Al-Asmari, coach from Saudi Arabia who was a former athlete of steeple with some big result (bronze medal in WCh 1995, PB of 8'08"14 in 2002), who was fired after the ban of Ruth Jebet.

I don't know if there is a direct intervention of the National Team in the situation of doped Bahreini athletes in Kapsabet. What I know, is that Kapsabet is not a safe place when we speak about doping, because the highest percentage of positive comes from that area, that was already the training site of Rita Jeptoo and Jemima Sumgong.

Renato Canova wrote:

I can't tell you what I don't know. What I know, is that Bahrein had a training camp, lasting all the year, in Kapsabet, with the most part of the Bahreini athletes. The head coach was Shaddad Al-Asmari, coach from Saudi Arabia who was a former athlete of steeple with some big result (bronze medal in WCh 1995, PB of 8'08"14 in 2002), who was fired after the ban of Ruth Jebet.

I don't know if there is a direct intervention of the National Team in the situation of doped Bahreini athletes in Kapsabet. What I know, is that Kapsabet is not a safe place when we speak about doping, because the highest percentage of positive comes from that area, that was already the training site of Rita Jeptoo and Jemima Sumgong.

Interesting...thanks.

Renato Canova wrote:

or 32'03" in 10000m the day after winning a 400 hs in 55"6.....

.

What's all this, then?

There is not a "typical aerobic training" for Kenyans, because there are too many differences among one place and another : in some case the school is very near, in other case is 4-5 km far (on the mountains) ; in some case, boys and girls walk a lot of km every day following cows, ships and goats of the family, in other cases they go to school using schoolbus or car.

But, about boys and girls able to improve very quickly, the behavior is almost similar. They come from villages far from every town, near the mountains. They work in the farm of the parents, walking a lot of km every day. If they have a school very near, they have more time to spend at home, and play football (or some other kind of game) for hours, building their aerobic resistance step by step.

And not forget that many of them start when already more old (around 26-28 years), when find the opportunity to be tested. For example, Wilson Kipsang has his father who was an old talented athlete, but he never ran seriously before beeing recruited in Police. He started running in some selection of Police, and the coaches discovered his talent. The same with Abel Kirui, and now with Josphat Boit Kiptoo : they were not recruited in Police BECAUSE athletes, but became athletes when already were in Police. The case of Erick Kiptanui is the same, not in Police but in Army ; he started to run in some selection when already in Defense corp.

We have a wrong idea about athletes "coming from the forest". In the camp we organized, I had sometime the opportunity to see for the first time some athlete, invited by another athlete already in the camp, able to run immediately at the level very close with athletes already in training from long time. Speaking with them after their training, in order to know a little bit more about themselves, I discovered they were in training from several years, competing only in some local race, eating only once per day, not following any coach, not having any physiotherapic assistance. After short time they find food, physiotherapy and a coach, they can run very fast immediately, and we thing they come from nothing, while instead they have already many years of activity (also if not technically defined).

well well, you finally wrote coherently, and this time with respect...wow all i had to do is call out Vigil and now you dont yell at me like your some drunk...

well despite what you said in a respectful manner, its not going to change that fact that EPO does in fact work, and Rosa and his runners have proven how effective they are. funny how brutal paula ratcliff was against EPO dopers when it was russians beating her, but now it seems the defenders of her and the EPO apologists on here act like EPO doesnt even work....if thats the case why was she b*tching so hard about it?

now again renato i ask you, why was brimin basically even jager, then pops almost a WR, then back to even jager.

why is it you can have paragraphs on soooo many athletes you dont coach but you cant explain this? why is it he ran almost a WR, and the next year (2012) is when things started to be exposed about what was called an epidemic in kenyan about doping?

evan jager has been super consistent, but for him to drop damn near 10 seconds and be right there at the WR...you wouldnt think anything odd? like you constently claim these big drops happen from better coaching or stronger mind

you claim sang is up there in God like coaching level with you, so you cant claim he had a sub par amateur coach, next you cant claim low 8's is amateur, but you refuse to explain how he did it.

2017 8:19.87 Nairobi (KEN) 24 JUN 2017

2016 8:18.79 Rio de Janeiro (BRA) 17 AUG 2016

2015 8:10.09 Paris (FRA) 04 JUL 2015

2014 8:04.64 Doha (QAT) 09 MAY 2014

2013 8:06.86 London (GBR) 27 JUL 2013

2012 8:01.73 Paris (FRA) 06 JUL 2012

2011 7:53.64 Monaco (MON) 22 JUL 2011

2010 8:00.90 Paris-St-Denis (FRA) 16 JUL 2010

2009 8:03.17 Athina (GRE) 13 JUL 2009

2008 8:10.26 Bruxelles (BEL) 05 SEP 2008

2007 8:02.89 Bruxelles (BEL) 14 SEP 2007

2006 8:08.32 Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 2006

2005 8:04.22 Roma (ITA) 08 JUL 2005

2004 8:05.52 Hengelo (NED) 31 MAY 2004

approx 7 seconds, one year, outlier, already at TOP TIER level, already with what you call TOP TIER coach that you claim is on the same God level as you....so why wont you use your superiour knowledge you claim you have over all of us on LR, and lets here the explanation on how a TOP TIER runner with TOP TIER coach, running consistent TOP TIER TIMES, all the sudden DROPS 7 seconds and almost runs the WR, the WR your one and only shaheen the greatest runner ever according to you....then back to the same level?

closer to what rek would say EPO can do, a nice 1.5 %....but your classic argument about anything is bad sub par coaching or weakmind.....but since you put him on a list of bragging clean athletes and say sang is level with your coaching, then you need to explain how Evan Jager runs the same for 6 yrs then drops the hammer then goes back to Evan Jager.

Evan Jager has a faster 1500 than brimin

Evan Jager has a faster 3000 by ten seconds than brimin

Evan Jager has run 6yrs consistent at 3000m st at TOP TIER level, so next year i can expect him to drop a 7:53? right

let me guess, Evan could but he is mindweak with an amateur coach

Or they improve rapidly because they use EPO, which even you admit is a way in which it can be effective.

Renato Canova wrote:

We have a wrong idea about athletes "coming from the forest". In the camp we organized, I had sometime the opportunity to see for the first time some athlete, invited by another athlete already in the camp, able to run immediately at the level very close with athletes already in training from long time. Speaking with them after their training, in order to know a little bit more about themselves, I discovered they were in training from several years, competing only in some local race, eating only once per day, not following any coach, not having any physiotherapic assistance. After short time they find food, physiotherapy and a coach, they can run very fast immediately, and we thing they come from nothing, while instead they have already many years of activity (also if not technically defined).

Which proof can you have that ALL the athletes I put in the list, in every event, could run faster taking EPO ?

If yes, the current WR from clean athletes (ALL) can be bettered, if somebody takes EPO and is so smart not to be caught.

If not, these WR are the real current limit, waiting for some better talent, and/or better training system, coming in the future.

And, explain me : how is possible to have some proof that an athlete is clean ?

How is possible to have some proof that a person is honest ?

"Or" is not the denial of the possibility that they goes to high performances, unknown to western people (but not to whom normally works in Kenya), because of the reasons that I explained.

I know there are possibilities of doped athletes, among the new comers at sudden high level.

But I also know the REAL possibility for many of them to improve in short time, with training only.

You seem not to believe that this is possible.

You, of all people, talking about someone's English?

You're a native speaker and your English is shit. He is an Italian native speaker and he expresses himself really well in English.

You really are a moron.

lolz

Moran.

lolz

Rekrunner is a liar wrote:

I have no idea if Shaheen doped or not.

I do know that a doper ran faster than his best time.

I am sure a few dopers have run faster than your best times.

Mindweak, I explain about Brimin.

He was already a big talent, winning in 2004 the bronze medal in WJCH (1500m in 3'35"96).

He was from the beginning in the camp of Global management, under the coaching of Patrick Sang, from the beginning. He is one of the best friends of Eliud Kipchoge : they are the two "bosses" of the camp, the one with more carisma and more experience.

But there is a big difference : while Eliud is very strong like body structure, Brimin always was very fragile, having a lot of injuries during all his athletics life.

In 2004, still junior, he was able to win Silver in Olympic Games and to have good continuity in the results :

8:05.52 PB (5) (1) 1 FBKG Hengelo 31 May

8:17.1hA 2 OT Nairobi 26 Jun

8:21.92 13 DNG Stockholm 27 Jul

8:15.11 1h2 OG Athína 21 Aug

8:06.11 2 OG Athína 24 Aug

8:05.89 5 VD Bruxelles 3 Sep

8:16.45 6 WAF Monaco 19 Sep

in 2005, he won Bronze medal in WCh, and ran steeple 9 times :

8:09.53 SB 1 FBKG Hengelo 29 May

8:11.69 2 GP Sevilla 4 Jun

8:21.5hA 2 WCT Nairobi 25 Jun

8:04.22 PB (3) 3 GGala Roma 8 Jul

8:19.90 2h3 WC Helsinki 7 Aug

8:15.30 3 WC Helsinki 9 Aug

8:10.69 2 WK Zürich 19 Aug

8:14.26 10 VD Bruxelles 26 Aug

8:09.20 3 WAF Monaco 9 Sep

in 2006, he ran only 5 times, having a problem in one knee-

8:09.64 SB 2 Gaz Saint-Denis 8 Jul

8:08.32 SB (4) 3 GGala Roma 14 Jul

8:20.52 8 WK Zürich 18 Aug

8:15.26 5 VD Bruxelles 25 Aug

8:20.05 6 WAF Stuttgart 10 Sep

in 2007, due to the absence of Shaheen and the demotivation of Ezekiel Kemboi, he prepared for winning WCh, without looking at fast times, but at the end of the season improved his PB :

8:17.21 SB 4 FBKG Hengelo 26 May

8:06.98 SB 3 Tsiklitiria Athína 2 Jul Irregular mark: One hurdle missing

8:12.88 3 Gaz Saint-Denis 6 Jul

8:18.19A 2 WC Tr Nairobi 28 Jul

8:21.93 1h3 WC Osaka 26 Aug

8:13.82 1 WC Osaka 28 Aug

8:02.89 PB (2) 2 VD Bruxelles 14 Sep

8:11.05 3 WAF Stuttgart 23 Sep

In 2008, the best performance of his career : the Olympic Gold

8:20.57 SB 5 GP Doha 9 May

8:18.06 SB 4 FBKG Hengelo 24 May

8:15.23 SB 1 CAA Rabat 14 Jun

8:13.60A SB 2 OT Nairobi 4 Jul

8:15.71 1 GGala Roma 11 Jul

8:23.53 2h1 OG Beijing 16 Aug

8:10.34 SB 1 OG Beijing 18 Aug

8:10.26 SB (7) 2 VD Bruxelles 5 Sep

8:29.11 9 WAF Stuttgart 14 Sep

In 2009, he had an injury the day after Kenyan Trials, and for that reason couldn't defend his title in Berlin. His last meetings of the year were for economical reasons only.

8:08.71 SB 3 Super GP Doha 8 May

8:06.46 SB 1 FBKG Hengelo 1 Jun

8:09.95 2 GSpike Ostrava 17 Jun

8:03.17 SB (5) 1 Tsiklitiria Athína 13 Jul

8:20.03A 1 WC Tr Nairobi 25 Jul

8:18.07 1h2 WC Berlin 16 Aug

8:12.61 7 WC Berlin 18 Aug

8:20.24 8 WK Zürich 28 Aug

8:16.44 6 WAF Thessaloníki 13 Sep

In 2010, he had a good period of shape in July, but again had tendon problems after Saint Denis :

8:18.13 SB 11 Diamond Doha 14 May

8:18.27 2 FBKG Hengelo 30 May

8:18.92 3 adidas New York NY 12 Jun

8:01.62 PB 1 Athl Lausanne 8 Jul

8:00.90 PB (1) 1 Areva Saint-Denis 16 Jul

8:20.77 3 Aviva London 13 Aug

8:10.02 7 WK Zürich 19 Aug

8:19.65 3 CWG Delhi 11 Oct

In 2011, he was able to solve his problems, and, in good training from December, ran also 3 indoor competitions of 1500m in February :

1500m

3:37.17i PB (10) 5 PSD Bank Düsseldorf 11 Feb

3:39.07i 3 Flanders Gent 13 Feb

3:37.80i 4 Aviva Birmingham 19 Feb

3:35.52 SB (50) 6 FBKG Hengelo 29 May

3000m Steeplechase

8:02.28 SB 1 Diamond Shanghai 15 May

8:05.40 2 Bislett Oslo 9 Jun

8:24.6hA 2h1 NC Nairobi 14 Jul

8:20.19A 1 NC Nairobi 16 Jul

7:53.64 AR PB (1) 1 Herc Monaco 22 Jul

8:21.89 3h3 WC Daegu 29 Aug

8:16.05 2 WC Daegu 1 Sep

How you can see, for the first time he was able to start the season with very good times, winning in Shanghai with 8'02" already in May. In Oslo, the 3 top athletes (Paul Koech, Ezekiel Kemboi and Brimin Kipruto) agreed to try the WR in Monaco, and Paul Koech had a personal incentive (really good money) for pacing after the first half at very high speed (Paul Koech was the only fron runner of the group, since Brimin and Ezekiel never were interested to push the pace, being confident in their final sprint).

In the race, Ezekiel was not able to stay with the other two longer than till the last 80m (arriving 2nd in his PB of 7'55"76), while Paul ran something slower than 7'57".

After 2011, Brimin never was the same, losing part of his final speed for problems in one tendon and in one knee. He was still able to run in 8'01" in Saint Denis, but could not have any continuity because his training was an alternation of rest and training for all the season. In 2012 :

8:26.59 SB 12 Diamond Doha 11 May

8:11.73A SB 1 OT Nairobi 23 Jun

8:01.73 SB (4) 2 Areva Saint-Denis 6 Jul

8:28.62 1h2 OG London 3 Aug

8:23.03 5 OG London 5 Aug

8:03.11 1 VD Bruxelles 7 Sep

Also in Olympics, his shape was not the best, and only in August could resume the full training.

The top career of Brimin practically ended that year. He had still some good performance, especially in altitude during Kenyan Trials, but was no more able to run fast times because of the long periods without training, or with little training without specific workouts. This is 2013 :

8:14.97 SB 7 Diamond Shanghai 18 May

8:15.19 2 World Chall Beijing 21 May

8:14.9hA 3 WC Tr Nairobi 13 Jul

8:06.86 SB (6) 1 Sainsbury's London 27 Jul

8:26.58 9 DNG Stockholm 22 Aug

8:25.85 7 WK Zürich 29 Aug

8:16.51 4 ISTAF Berlin 1 Sep

This is 2014 :

8:04.64 SB (4) 2 Diamond Doha 9 May

8:11.39 3 GGala Roma 5 Jun

8:20.93 10 Bislett Oslo 11 Jun

8:14.00 4 Athletissima Lausanne 3 Jul

8:21.49 10 Herc Monaco 18 Jul

8:16.61 2 Sainsbury's Birmingham 24 Aug

8:16.90 6 VD Bruxelles 5 Sep

This is 2015 :

8:18.55 SB 6 Diamond Shanghai 17 May

8:10.09 SB (5) 4 Areva Saint-Denis 4 Jul

8:22.95A 3 WC Tr Nairobi 1 Aug

8:24.95 3h3 WC Beijing 22 Aug

8:12.54 3 WC Beijing 24 Aug

8:24.66 7 WK Zürich 3 Sep

This is 2016 :

8:29.54 SB 14 GGala Roma 2 Jun

8:19.33 SB 4 Diamond Birmingham 5 Jun

8:33.5hA 1h2 OT Eldoret 30 Jun

8:27.68A 1 OT Eldoret 1 Jul

8:26.25 2h2 OG Rio de Janeiro 15 Aug

8:18.79 SB (25) 6 OG Rio de Janeiro 17 Aug

8:20.46 5 Athletissima Lausanne 25 Aug

8:25.65 13 VD Bruxelles 9 Sep

This is 2017 (his last year) :

8:35.1hA SB 2h2 WC Tr Nairobi 23 Jun

8:19.87A SB (26) 2 WC Tr Nairobi 24 Jun

8:33.33 7h3 WC London 6 Aug

Brimin ran 102 competitions of steeple during 14 years of activity, that are a good way for destroying knees and tendons for an athlete so thin like him.

The top 10 personal performances are the following :

7:53.64 1 Monaco 22 Jul 2011

8:00.90 1 Saint-Denis 16 Jul 2010

8:01.62 1 Lausanne 8 Jul 2010

8:01.73 2 Saint-Denis 6 Jul 2012

8:02.28 1 Shanghai 15 May 2011

8:02.89 2 Bruxelles 14 Sep 2007

8:03.11 1 Bruxelles 7 Sep 2012

8:03.17 1 Athína 13 Jul 2009

8:04.22 3 Roma 8 Jul 2005

8:04.64 2 Doha 9 May 2014

So, we can say that Brimin had great talent, but was very fragile in his body. He had the characteristic to have a very fast final, and for that reason only preferred tactical races than races for trying fast times.

His best time is due to a particular situation : the only time that Paul Kipsiele Koech, the most consistant specialist ever, acted as a real pacer for both Brimin and Ezekiel, under a big incentive for trying the WR.

So, many reasons out of doping for that particular performance. In many of his performances a little bit slower than 8', Brimin could already have had the possibility to run around 7'56" if there was some pushing the pace, but the only one able to do this was Paul Kipsiele Koech, who wanted to be competitive for himself, and not to run as pacer of other athletes.

At the end, the fact Brimin failed for 1/100 only the WR of Shaheen is an act of justice, looking at the careers of the two athletes. And, believe me, I don't think 7'53" was a great record, because in 2006 I was sure Shaheen could run under 7'50", if the conditions of the weather and the pace of the last rabbit (Richard Mateelong) was correct.

I do think it is at least theoretically possible. But I consider that far from any kind of proof. I think we both agree that new comers at high levels are at least potentially dopers.

Renato Canova wrote:

"Or" is not the denial of the possibility that they goes to high performances, unknown to western people (but not to whom normally works in Kenya), because of the reasons that I explained.

I know there are possibilities of doped athletes, among the new comers at sudden high level.

But I also know the REAL possibility for many of them to improve in short time, with training only.

You seem not to believe that this is possible.

so what you are saying is even though he wasnt as fast at 1500 or 3000, he was superior runner to Evan Jager....or is it that Evan Jager has an amateur coach and should be running 7:53 as well?

We can't prove our theories (also in my case is not theories, because the names of the athletes I put in the list are of runners under control, so, different from all of you, I KNOW WHAT THEY DID, and is not only a supposition).

The fact is that, with the impossibility to prove yes or not, who likes athletics, doesn't put limits in his mind, and wants to try his best with open mind, thinks POSSIBLE running fast, and think the athletes are clean till when there is not some evidence (maybe also not official) that they look at doping.

Instead, your position seems to be that, because is not possible to prove one athlete is clean, everybody can be doped (exactly like everybody can be a cheater of a thief, because is not possible to prove one person is honest).

Sorry, but I prefer to give credit to any person that can be honest, kind, smart, able, hard workers, etc... till when I don't have precise proof that he is not honest, not kind, not smart, unable, lazy etc...

And this also if I well know that in the World there are cheaters, thieves, megalomans etc...

My position is to have faith in the athletes, your position is to have faith in doping.

No, I say that Evan Jager never had the opportunity of a race like Monaco 2011, when Brimin and Ezekiel bettered their PB.

I wish Jager to have this opportunity in the future, also if I think very difficult to find very fast races today, because the field in the event is at the moment very weak, compared with some year ago.

It seems you look at the PB only for deciding the level of an athlete. This is not correct : there are many athletes who were winners of Olympic medals and of World Championships, who never had very fast times, and other who had the opportunity to run at 100% of their possibilities.

Look for example at all the athletes in the Olympic final of London in 800m : who was there, because of Rudisha, had the opportunity to run probably at their maximum level, in some case improving of a big percentage. : Kiptum ran 1'42"53, his best performances after this are 1'43"65 and 1'43"94 ; Osagie ran 1'43"77, and his best performances after this are 1'44"36 and 1'44"48.

Look at Clayton Murphy, aho in 2016 before Rio had a PB of 1'44"76, and in Rio (again because of Rudisha) ran 1'42"93.

And look at all the times in 1500m in the races won by El Guerrouj, or in 5000 and 10000m in the races won by Kenenisa Bekele.

Also with doping, nobody runs fast if the race is not fast.

Also without doping, many athletes of "medium" level can run fast if the race is fast.