Alex Hutchinson calls out CANOVA over study confirming EPO works on Kenyan runners

rekrunner wrote:

Athletes use it 30 years later, because it is highly ENDORSED.

Highly endorsed by unscrupulous coaches, agents & doping doctors?

rekrunner wrote:

Part of the solution is prevention -- giving athletes a realistic idea of the big risks versus the small reward.

Have you ever thought about getting out there and giving talks to the athletes about this? (you are/were a youth coach?). Or perhaps make a YouTube video about it? (you'd blow your anonymity, but it might be worth it).

Continually arguing almost daily on this subject of the performance benefits, or lack thereof, isn't going to do any good if you're that passionate about it. Getting out there and presenting your message to the athletes & coaches might make a difference, even if it's just a few.

Here are the last three weeks of Steve Jones before the WR of chicago 84.

In fact he did a few miles, there is an 18 miles.

It must be said that athletes such as steve jones and carlos lopes had this long attitude demonstrated by the fact that they were completely devoid of short or long sprint that is, while on the contrary , they were capable of irresistible progressions but for many miles.

In Italy we had Alberto Cova who, on cross and half marathon work, wanted to graft a compressed marathon job in just one month, but they were not very successful, indeed the increase in km in a short time (1000 km in a month), brought him a calf injury; to bring his cross-half-marathon shape, with a corresponding shape in marathon, he served more time to get that conversion.

Alberto Cova had a great sprint ...

Kipchoge, as a structure seems to train like a 10k, (classic 48-48-72 hours cycle schedule) but its speed is slow even on the 800-1000 tests, even runs that could be VO2 max (115% of canova intensity) he makes them slow. It has a specific block on the velocity of marathon, while its slow and very long runs are even slower, in this way it manages to recover them in just 48 hours. With 2-3 months of these training I think it loses a few seconds on 5-10 k.

Steve Jones work I said above:

https://runningscience.co.za/elite-athletes-training-log/steve-jones/

Renato Canova wrote:

And another thing you have to consider : while Erick prepared for few months, in specific way, the event of HM (like all my Group at the moment, waiting to move to Marathon when ready), Kejelcha ran 1500m in 3'32" only 10 days before, and was not specifically prepared for the distance.

If you think that an athlete runs fast EVERY distance in the same period, you clearly don't have any clue in the SPECIFICY of training. .

From what I'm observing Salazar has his athletes train to be comfortable at a range of distances hence Murphy, Kejelcha and Rupp are all training together even Hassan. In fact Kejelcha was brought in as Rupp's new training partner after Mo left. Remember Mo ran 3:28 and won the Greater North run within two months. So clearly I haven't got a clue. Question, why would you have a guy that had the "talent" run 58 mins off 6 months training waste his time running 3:38 for 1500m? You know now he's run 58 minutes the WMM will now test him randomly OOC. Oh I am the skeptic.

m!ndweak wrote:

1) so kiprop, sumgong, and jeptoo had bad coaching? lolz!!!

or is it

2) kiptop, sumgong, and jeptoo were not talented! hahaha

I Bett $32 Jebet and Jepchumba weren't training properly either.

They're all clean until they get caught, remember?

rekrunner wrote:

It would seem then that this contradiction between what was said, and what was understood, originates in the minds of "someone else".

physics defiant wrote:

Of course it would SEEM that way to you.

To someone else it might seem that they are advising against taking it so that you don't catch up with their athletes.

Or the person saying you can't win without it is saying be happy with where you finish and know that you are not a cheat.

Yes, it SEEMS that way to you.

As I said before: the fact that Jeptoo improved, at 33, after a break, after leaving Renato for a new unexperienced coach, and got caught doping, is noteworthy. To me, it implies that she either was clean under Renato or used smaller dosages, and that the risky regular volume dosages in her new team aided her performance more than the - most likely - less advanced training and age decline hurt her. Regarding Rosa, here is what Renato thought about them two years ago. Doesn't look like Kiprop changed his mind: www.letsrun.com/news/2016/12/renato-canova-qa-part-kenyans-struggled-rio-learn-name-2020-olympic-5000-champ-isnt-china-better-running/

As for the Rosa trial, it was complete stupidity on the part of the police. They did not investigate anything and they did not have any evidence. We know that they are completely clean, both Gabriel [Rosa, Federico’s father and founder of Rosa’s agency] and Claudio Berardelli. This trial was caused by a desire for revenge by somebody that asked Rosa to give him money, and Rosa refused.

m!ndweak wrote:

1) so kiprop, sumgong, and jeptoo had bad coaching? lolz!!!

or is it

2) kiptop, sumgong, and jeptoo were not talented! hahaha

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Athletes use it 30 years later, because it is highly ENDORSED.

Highly endorsed by unscrupulous coaches, agents & doping doctors?

rekrunner wrote:

Part of the solution is prevention -- giving athletes a realistic idea of the big risks versus the small reward.

Have you ever thought about getting out there and giving talks to the athletes about this? (you are/were a youth coach?). Or perhaps make a YouTube video about it? (you'd blow your anonymity, but it might be worth it).

Continually arguing almost daily on this subject of the performance benefits, or lack thereof, isn't going to do any good if you're that passionate about it. Getting out there and presenting your message to the athletes & coaches might make a difference, even if it's just a few.

I believe people have lost sight of the original question discussed in the first couple pages of the thread, IE whether an elite, lifetime altitude adapted runner obtains any performance effect from the utilization of EPO. Mr. Canova's contention is no. The reality is that , a well controlled, bullet proof study has not been done looking at this, in this subgroup of athletes. Given that, I would defer to the coach, who is the only one at this point really experienced enough and qualified to render an opinion. In my opinion.

Like I said before, if your VO2 max (properly measured) is 5.0 liters per minute it's not going up to 5.1 or down to 4.9 any time soon. But that is the opposite of what everyone believes. And this is what this idiot blood boosting nonsense is based on; just plain bad science.

V02 peak and VO2 plateau are two different phenomena.

V02 peak is the highest value recorded in a test and V02 plateau by the standard measurement of minute volume is the amount sustained for one minute or more.

We can run at a higher intensity for longer when we have a higher plasma volume, but this is not necessary or even detrimental for a middle distance runner who doesn't sweat much until the race is over.

Plasma volume is relative to the amount we sweat and a higher volume of plasma reduces the hematocrit percentage. This is really basic physiology stuff that everyone should know but almost no-one does including most exercise physiologists.

JonO. wrote:

We can run at a higher intensity for longer when we have a higher plasma volume, but this is not necessary or even detrimental for a middle distance runner who doesn't sweat much until the race is over.

Plasma volume is relative to the amount we sweat and a higher volume of plasma reduces the hematocrit percentage. This is really basic physiology stuff that everyone should know but almost no-one does including most exercise physiologists.

Amateurs have lower plasma volume? So necessary liquids for sweating cannot be used by legs for running?

Show your test data from the lab. VO2 numbers are constantly going up and down according to fitness levels.

Your wall of nonsense does give you a clue why EPO works though. But you probably won't be able to figure it out any time soon.

jon you are so confused.

your V02max is something your born with. notice its units, Liters bro, Liters...

how many Liters can your lungs breath in a given amount of time. a midget will have a smaller V02max than say lebron, but your so smart you must already know this huh?

now back to your ridiculous nonsense on overheating...rhEPO has shown to significantly increase size and number of mitochondria...you and rek still seem to not care about this revelation, for him he is still stuck on rbc's and you are on this sweating stupidity.

the more in shape you are the better your body is at REGULATING temperature...and how interesting that the main function mitochondria does is combine 02 with glucose to make ATP, with the byproducts of WATER and C02 being formed.

hmmm so your saying the more in shape you are the more mitochondria you have, rhEPO creates unnatural amounts and larger size mitochondria...and the more in shape you are the better your body regulates temperature, this is prob from the reason your mitochondria MAKES more water, prob why FAT people and out of shape people DIE from heat stroke.

but whatever keep on with your nonsense and claim your some phD bada$$

you dont know anything about what your talking about, your either a 15yr or some delusional 55yr old who hobby jogs

The thing with Jon is that he ran some decent times, he just has no idea what allowed him to run those times.

You all are sounding like petulant undergrads.

i knew a few of those in college, can i say DUMB as a brick...we were on some sunday 12 mile run, and he was one of the top varsity guys at the time, we were doing 5:40 pace, and for them it was chill for me it was MAXED out, when i started to fall off he looked back and me and said

"come on chad dont be a little b*tch, we are all hurting the same"

no sorry, he would have had to run 4:55 pace to be hurting like i was.....absolute morons....but when we did 400 repeats and he couldnt run faster than 55, did i mock him? no cause im not an idiot

the world is flat, EPO doesnt work, and thermoregulation is why PEDs dont work

only on LR can people proclaim with great authority without any backing how smart and correct they are....but sh*t the brojos did make it the slogan

"where dreams become reality"

some serious dreams on here for sure, not much based in reality

V02 Max is expressed as ml of O2 consumed per kg of bodyweight/minute. This takes total bodyweight out of the equation. With the exception of those with less muscle mass and more fat at the same bodyweight would likely have a lower V02 max. Also a consideration is the level of training, as training improves O2 extraction and utilization by the working muscle. Thus a highly trained midget could certainly be expected to generate high values, if trained properly. Also, volume of air moving in and out of the lungs/minute under heavy exercise would most certainly be expected to be greater in a much larger athlete, but the V02 Max could be similar.

the issue is with the lung capacity, V02 and V02max is controlled by this. how much AIR can you breath in and out in one minute. then based on the % of oxygen in the atmosphere, which is around 18-20% sea level to even the mythical kenya.

if you have LARGER lungs you will be able to inhale MORE than someone with smaller lungs, this causes DISCREPANCIES.

this all goes back to what we know about mitochondria.

for any given person the body will inhale the same % of 02 from the atmosphere, the bigger the lungs the more of that %. now the person with MORE mitochondria will absorb more of the 02 that was inhaled than the person with less mitochondria. so now pay attention

a person with a higher V02 but less mitochondria will be the slower runner than the person with a lower V02 but MORE mitochondria.

V02 being a huge scientific breakthrough in 1920s and still somehow used as the golden rule is asinine. they didnt even know about mitochondria at that time.

now a person with a large V02 like lance, who obviouslly must have had lower than average mitochondria, takes rhEPO, which now makes a SIGNIFICANT increase in number and size of mitochondria, then boom, you have a large lung capacity to inhale air, now combined with a large capacity to absorb the 02 from the blood, and boom ROCKET FUEL. this is more than likely why you have some % increase and HIGH responders.

I'll go back to my original premise, for the last time. There is no data that has been collected in elite, lifetime altitude acclimated athletes indicating that EPO has any measurable positive effects, over and above what their training and acclimatization have already accomplished. Even though the study design in the ACSM Journal is suspect, it may have shown some measurable effects to the positive in the groups tested. As a peer reviewer, I would have rejected the paper and had them redo their study design. These were not "elite", athletes as a subgroup, and a study looking at this subgroup, controlling for all the variables that affect performance has not been done. One can create any number of circuitous arguments, unsupported by sound, peer reviewed data to jump to any number of conclusions. I've been to, and presented at many ACSM scientific conferences where debate has raged in the same manner, about lots of different topics. Feel free to rage on :)

Of course there's data. All of those titles and records held and set by dopers who still train at latitude is data.